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15 Feb 2012

Ron Jaworski to Leave MNF Booth

Ugh. This sucks. Maybe he got tired of all the travel. Ron Jaworski has signed a new five-year contract with ESPN that will give him an expanded presence all over the WWL's studio shows -- but takes him out of the MNF booth, leaving just a two-man crew of Mike Tirico and that guy, Jon Gruden.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 15 Feb 2012

157 comments, Last at 22 Feb 2012, 2:19am by dmstorm22

Comments

1
by BlueStarDude :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:14pm

Time to go back to watching MNF w/ the sound off.

2
by justanothersteve :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:15pm

Nooooooooooooooo!

3
by AnonymousA (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:19pm

How this happened (in my mind):
"Guys, the MNF booth isn't working, it's being pulled in two different directions!"
"Well, eliminate one of the directions!"
*Removes competence, leaving nothing but vortex of suck*
"Done!"

30
by Alexander :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:44pm

Perhaps they will get rid of Tirico as well.

WTF is his purpose other that to annoy?

65
by Ed Lover (not verified) :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:12am

Agreed. I hate Tirico.

Maybe they can bring Brent Musberger over from the college games. Always good to have an announcer with a vested interest in the outcome of the game.

150
by apbadogs :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 9:39am

Tirico does suck and the ESPN book "These Guys Have All The Fun" doesn't paint in a very flattering light as a overall person either, quite a a-hole.

4
by theslothook :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:20pm

you know...i initially thought that when john gruden joined that he would be awesome...here's at least perceived to be a great football mind who could bring analytical insights to the game.

While he does a good job of diagnosing plays...he just doesn't do a good job at all. Instead of being critical, decisive with his words, and more on point with his comments, he just spends most of his time giving out endless platitudes and praises to the coaches, the players, the refs, and seemingly anyone else he can think of.

Sadly, outside of cris collinsworth and maybe troy aikman, there are probably no other tv commentators who actually do a good job. TOo bad jaws is leaving.

11
by Dean :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:35pm

I was with you right up until the moment you wrote "Troy."

18
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:11pm

I would definitely take Aikman over Collinsworth, though I prefer Mike Mayock to either of them.

33
by BlueStarDude :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:58pm

+1 on Mayock. He's the best.

Collinsworth OK, probably second best now.

Troy = too many concussions. Best I could say is he's not terrible and, sadly, possibly third best.

Having read The New Yorker article on Gruden I can't figure out why he sucks so bad. He's better than Dierdorf but who isn't?

35
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 6:28pm

He's better than Dierdorf but who isn't?

Phil Simms. That's all I got.

88
by Noah of Arkadia :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:49pm

Collinsworth, Mayock, then everyone else.

Troy?

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

22
by Never Surrender (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:26pm

Troy who? Aikman? I ask because I stopped at "Collinsworth" and didn't get to the part you are referencing.

Joking aside, my theory is that Aikman was decent at first until the insufferable Buck and FOX's producers "taught" him how to be a "better" "analyst."

46
by Southern Philly :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:43pm

I too liked Troy Aikman at first. But then as the years passed it was clear that Joe Buck is a Zombie Announcer: he eats the brains of not just the viewers but also his broadcast partner. Tim McCarver used to be a respected announcer, and now he's endlessly mocked and is partnered with Buck. Coincidence?

15
by tuluse :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:58pm

I know say this a lot, but Billick is my favorite commentator these days.

29
by Will Allen :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:39pm

The nice thing about Billick is that he, better than nearly all football yammerers, or even just sports blowhards in general, has an acute sense of how many strongly stated assertions are nothing more than nonsense that is hopelessly polluted by confirmation bias.

98
by J. Morse (not verified) :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 5:37pm

Agreed on Billick. He and Collinsworth are the only color guys who actually pay more attention to developments on the field than to their script.

52
by Raiderjoe :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 8:58pm

D. Fouts eben though ex-Charger ezcellsnt commentator. Verygood. Gannon getting good. Pennington on the rise and Charles Favis pretty good. Favorites all tims are J. Madden (genius hesd cosch, best announcdr ever, good video game gud too), C. Jones, Enberg before lost fastball, p. Summerall, Criqui, Marv albert, Fouts and some others

54
by Thomas H. (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 9:12pm

Always have liked Fouts. Always been surprised he hasn't gotten some of the bigger jobs.

60
by BigWoody (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:48pm

Agree on Fouts but John Brodie (sp?) even better.

66
by Bill Walsh's Holy Ghost (not verified) :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:17am

I know Madden is highly respected but I couldn't stand him in the 90s; his endless fawning over the Cowboys made me ill. Course, being a 49ers fan may have something to do with that...

74
by Dean :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 9:39am

In the 90s, John Madden was already washed up as a broadcaster. By then, he was all schtick and commercials. But if you go back further, to the 80s, when he was still on his way up in the broadcasting business, he was absolutely untouchable.

82
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:56pm

Yes Madden in 80s= greatness
Madden in 90s= very good
Madden jn 00s- old dorky Sata Claus type guy

89
by Noah of Arkadia :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:54pm

Madden spoke like he was talking to three-year olds. I didn't like him.

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

122
by Lance :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:28pm

You're joking, right? He LOVED the 49ers!! Jerry Rice walked on water, and Steve Young wasn't close behind. Hell, Ricky Waters was an all-time great if you listened to Madden do those games. Of course, being a Cowboys fan may have colored things a bit, but still....

5
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:34pm

Well, this definitely sucks, but I guess it could be worse. In fact, when I clicked on this link, I half expected to see that they were planning something truly idiotic, like replacing Jaws with Skip Bayless (or Christian Slater).

6
by Tom Gower :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:45pm

The three-man booth wasn't working, and ESPN seems to like Gruden a lot. I thought change was inevitable, and unless Gruden took a coaching job, it was going to be Jaws leaving the booth. If this means more NFL Matchup and more X&Os talk from that Sportscenter Special, I'm fine with the move. If/when Gruden does coach again, I hope they move Jaws back to the booth.

7
by AnonymousB (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:54pm

Well, s***t, you gotta leave some time

12
by thendcomes :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:44pm

This great news. Jaws was one of the biggest idiots on TV. Thank god they split up the Monday night fellatio show. I don't know how Jaws or Gruden even spoke with any given player's dick in their mouth the entire time.

By default, everything he said was a laughable exaggeration. Half of his commentary was in the form of a question he asked and answered himself. He would incorrectly assign some minor feature of a player as THE reason he was successful. He would come up with nicknames for players on the spot, claim he always called him that (but never did), and would never use it again.

My favorite Jaws moment was during the very first game of the 2007 season. Rex Grossman had just come off a spectacularly bad season for the Bears. He takes the first snap behind center, takes a 3 step drop, and fires left for a completion. Jaws wastes no time: "Wow! I can already see how much he's improved during the offseason. His mechanics, his stance, his footwork... you can see he's really turned himself into a great quarterback." With his usual voice of reason, Tony Kornheiser retorts "What are you talking about?! We've only seen one play and you're ready to christen him as a great quarterback?"

20
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:18pm

I was considering a detailed refutation of your comment, but fortunately, you saved me the time, by referring to Tony Kornheiser as the "voice of reason", so now I see that you were obviously just being sarcastic.

47
by thendcomes :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:45pm

Hehe, I welcome refutation. Kornheiser was always ready to shovel up Jaworski's bullshit. I was sad to see him go.

49
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 8:07pm

Cheer up. You can always tune in to PTI if you need a daily dose of Kornheiser's silly shtick.

61
by thendcomes :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:54pm

Haha, ESPN is un-watchable to me now. I really only liked him as the foil to Jaws.

26
by Eddo :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:46pm

The Bears opened the 2007 season on a Sunday, in San Diego.

28
by dmstorm22 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:13pm

ESPN did have a MNF preseason game in 2007 with the Bears, so maybe that is what he was talking about.

48
by thendcomes :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:48pm

dmstorm got it right. My fault.

8
by Anonymous(not that one) (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 1:59pm

All those guys do is blow every single player. I hate them all.

IS THERE ANYTHING LESS IMPORTANT THAN A PLAY-BY-PLAY WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE GODDAMN GAME?

10
by Intropy :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:10pm

The mascot?

21
by Shattenjager :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:19pm

Cheerleaders.

24
by speedegg :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:31pm

+1

25
by Dean :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:41pm

Are you sure?

I'd say the cheerleaders are more important than the play by play. But I'm shallow like that.

34
by Shattenjager :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 5:11pm

I'm sure. If I made a list of things the world would be better off without, professional sports cheerleaders would probably be in the top ten.

If you really have to do something like cheerleaders, hire models and just have them pose.

36
by MC2 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 6:30pm

If by "models", you mean runway-type fashion models (as opposed to, say, the "models" you might see in Playboy or Penthouse), I would argue that the average NFL cheerleader has a lot more sex appeal than the average fashion model, many of whom simply look, for lack of a better term, weird.

37
by tuluse :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 6:54pm

Agreed. If the idea is to have pretty girls titillating the audience, I think the current system is pretty good. Also, actual fashion models are probably more expensive.

Really I can take or leave cheerleaders. I like to look at pretty girls as much as the next guy, but it's not really my goal when watching football, and if it was my goal, I can do better than ogling cheerleaders.

45
by LionInAZ :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:34pm

Cheerleaders are definitely much less expensive than fashion models, or even professional dancers. Most of them get only about $100 dollars a game for cheering. Yet they often put out more effort that the players they're cheering for.

43
by Shattenjager :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:19pm

By "models," I just meant theoretically attractive people, however they want to define them. Since they would not be "cheering," they would no longer be "cheerleaders."

42
by Rabbit :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:17pm

'You have to take the shot when you’re supposed to take the shot. I cannot f–king pose and take the shot at the same time. I can’t believe they didn't take the right shot so many times.'

50
by John (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 8:23pm

+ 2^0

51
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 8:28pm

If you got rid of the cheerleaders, then Easterbrook's column would be mercifully finished in half the time.

64
by RickD :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 11:40pm

A good play-by-play man tells you about things that might not be on camera at the moment.

68
by Intropy :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:53am

I'll give my unpopular opinion that I actually like even the average NFL play by play man. I'm not saying that the NFL average play by play commentary is adequate, it's just that I actually prefer to have the game narrated to me as I watch it despite the fact that I usually see just about everything they mention anyway.

77
by tuluse :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 11:28am

I like having a pbp guy too (as long as it's not Buck). I don't think your opinion is unpopular either given that every single broadcast has one.

102
by Greg F (not verified) :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 11:25am

Agreed. This also applies to OL/DL, which can be quite confusing for the average viewer. Also, it isn't like I have the number for every single player on every team memorized, so (especially early in the game) it helps me know who is doing what.

90
by Noah of Arkadia :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:59pm

Exactly! It's absolutely moronic:

"He throws it! And it's caught!"

Give me a break.

Tennis guys have it right, they talk when the point is over but when the play starts they shut the hell up.

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

9
by opticallog :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:00pm

I think Jaws is great and I love his insights, but he wasn't doing a particularly great job in the booth. He (and every other talking head ESPN puts in that booth) got way too caught up in selling the TV product, at the expense of actual analysis, which requires occasional criticism of the players and coaches. Without providing commentary that comes across to the viewer as honest, Jaws (and again, every other talking head in the booth ESPN has put in there) just isn't compelling to listen to. And because it's Jaws and we know he's capable of thoughtful analysis, it's all the more frustrating.

31
by Mark S. (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:48pm

Agree completely with everything you wrote.

13
by Will Allen :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:52pm

I rarely watch the games with the sound on anymore, unless I'm looking for an injury update, because there is so seldom any value added. There have been radio guys, usually former coaches, who do really good jobs, but you can't get the radio broadcast in sync with the cable or satellite feed. Once in a while, with the local antennae broadcast, I can, by using the second language feature on television, get the microphones that pick up the crowd noise and on the field sounds, without getting the guys in the booth. That's really awesome.

23
by Deelron :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:28pm

You might want to consider a radio (or similar device) with an adjustable delay built in, I've found the slight hassle of setting it up more and more appealing in recent years.

14
by tuluse :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 2:56pm

Jaws wasn't very good as a real time announcer. He's much better as an analyst after the fact, so I actually like this move.

Gruden doesn't bother me too much as he rarely says anything that is totally wrong or just at complete odds with the universe ala Phil Simms. He just kind of creates background noise for me.

17
by Yuri (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:07pm

I think I agree. 2 man booth > 3 man booth. Jaws not that good live. Both Jaws and Gruden have an "it's all about the quarterback" style. Gruden sucks but in this case it's addition by subtraction.

On the other hand, what is the record for # of people at an NFL-themed studio show? Are we going to see growth there?

16
by dmstorm22 :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:05pm

I don't think Jaws worked well in the booth. I think pairing Jaws and Gruden was turning out horribly. Gruden is great in those QB Camp things he does every year, and I thought going in to his MNF career he would be really good, but I think the booth didn't work with two color analysts.

Just look at the last two 3-man booths we have seen (I believe these are the last two, but it might have slipped my mind). The old ESPN SNF crew of Patrick, Theismann and Maguire didn't work because none of them truly cared about giving you great analysis. Some might say it worked because there was never any forced attempt or schtick. It was just three guys making each other laugh. The other was FOX's test run with Buck, Aikman and Collinsworth after Madden and Summerall left. I thought they were actually good, but I think two analysts in any situation have a hard time splitting up time.

I think Gruden on his own will be OK. At least I hope.

19
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:17pm

Honestly other than Michaels and Colinsworth I can barely stand any of them. Billick has been decent when I have heard him. Buck and Aikman are sometimes not good enough not to be muted.

But mostly I just watch games on mute. I find I follow what is going on better without all the yammering about useless storylines aimed at the casuals.

27
by VarlosZ :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 3:51pm

I'll sign on with the crowd that says Jaws is great, but this was the wrong job for him. Those few times per game when they'd get back from commercial and he'd break down a play were very nice, but other than that nothing really worked. His style in the booth tended towards the loud and bombastic, and always there were too many sweeping declarations. Also, I thought it was pretty apparent that he and Gruden were just tolerating each other, and it got in the way sometimes.

OTOH, this does mean more air time for Jon Gruden, which is like spending three hours a week with my 9th grade gym teacher.

44
by sundown (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:21pm

Agree with you pretty much on all fronts. Jaws and Gruden came across a lot alike with plenty of platitudes and forced excitement. Their voices even sound a lot alike.

32
by MatMan :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:54pm

Tirico's a great play-by-play guy, and while Jaws is an outstanding analyst, he's badly neutered by the MNF format.

The same technique they use to make Gruden sound better makes Jaws sound worse: literally every single word both men say --pre-game, in-game, halftime, post-game-- is completely scripted. Even reactions to specific events of specific plays are written word-for-word ahead of time; if DE 1 beats LT 2, then read the words on index card #47. I'm not exaggerating. As a former long-time broadcaster, I recognize a script when I hear one.

And neither one ever deviates from the script, which is a shame. It'd be a more entertaining product if they just let the guys say what was on their minds, but we're dealing with ESPNDISNEY, which makes its money by selling highly produced, highly polished, tightly packaged products.

I'm not really lamenting the loss of Jaworski because we never really heard Jaworski in the first place...we heard his writer and producer. I loved Michaels & Madden because they were obviously human. All that "Brett Favre goes BOOM" stuff that a lot of people complain about was the stuff that I enjoyed because it was different and entertaining. I think I'm the only guy in the world that really liked Kornheiser in the booth. He was awesome when he wasn't reading his obviously prepared script (the ABCESPNDISNEY "system" was already in place by then). Even Dennis Miller could have been a great addition if they hadn't shoehorned him into a specific format and forced him to read a bunch of scripts every week.

39
by sundown (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:10pm

Very interesting post. I'm curious why they would bother scripting in that much detail? Gruden with his total lack of experience I could maybe understand, but Jaws?

Jaws was never nearly as good on MNF as I thought he would be. I loved hearing him analyze and explain plays, but he brought almost none of that to MNF.

75
by MatMan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 10:52am

It's not that they think Jaworski isn't talented, it's simply because TV producers by and large want zero risk and zero surprises. That's particularly true with a high-profile, high-dollar product like MNF.

A producer in television has a lot of power. Much more than, say, the producer of a movie.* If a TV show flops, it's the producer's ass. So most producers --except the ones with a lot of clout and rep-- take a very low-risk approach. They're willing to accept 80% quality so long as they're guaranteed not to go below that. They won't shoot for 100% if it means they might end up with 50% instead.

Which means whoever's in charge of MNF (I'm sure it's a group of people) has settled for a highly scripted and largely robotic approach rather than letting the hosts extemporize and risk them sounding foolish or half-assed.

We'll probably never see another Howard Cosell, and that's a shame.

*In film making, the title of "producer" is frequently honorary. Some movie makers even give friends or relatives a producer credit when that person had nothing at all to do with the film. And in some cases, the "producer" is paid to have his name attached to the project to sell more tickets. Steven Spielberg has done that a lot lately in both film and TV. If you see "executive producer" in a film's credits, that person almost certainly had a minor or nonexistent role in the production. I think Spielberg "executive produced" some recent TV series; he probably did nothing beyond hiring the scriptwriter or something like that. But generally the title of "producer" (without the 'executive') means you're responsible for the overall feel & content of the TV show. You hire the writers, you get final say on casting & scripts, you develop the overall "feel" of the program. Even a television director --who is God on a film set-- does what the producer says; he's sometimes just like the lighting guy or the gaffer. He just takes orders to build someone else's vision.

115
by speedegg :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 7:43pm

So, were the TV producers concerned that Jaws might ad-lib too much, did research show that they actually lost points with Jaws, or they were just worried about the potential loss?

IIRC the original producer of MNF left a few months ago, maybe the new regime had cold feet.

123
by Lance :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 4:38pm

I don't want to blow your cover, but do you really think that their lines are scripted? This seems to be a bit too much, if only because so much that's unscripted happens (i.e. the game itself) that it would be difficult to imaging an announcer sorting through index cards to try and find the right thing to say about situation X before the next play has started....

128
by Big-Hairy-Andy :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 6:42pm

I would hope that nobody is sorting through index cards for a script - not just because I hope it's not scripted but because, even if it is, surely the production team would at least flash things up on a teleprompter for them a là news broadcasts, rather than have them searching through physical cards?

132
by MatMan :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 2:16pm

I'll try to answer everybody's questions here...

Speedegg, it's a matter of zero risk via total control. The people in charge of the production (and their bosses at ABCESPNDISNEYMNF) are far, far more concerned with knowing 100% what will happen on-air than they are with the quality of the end product, especially if the potential extra gain in quality is negligible (which it is in their eyes - they are not football people, they are entertainment-industrial-complex people). There's no maliciousness behind their actions, it's just the way the business works. William Shatner had a telling line in one of his books: Hollywood will never, ever go out on a financial limb for purely artistic reasons.

Lance & Big-Hairy-Andy, I probably shouldn't have used the term "index cards." I meant "metaphorical index cards." For several days before every game, the hosts repeatedly get together with the producers and some other football people and hammer out details of every player on both teams. Every player gets at least a couple of scripted events.

During the broadcast, all three guys have IFBs in their ears...the little ear-bud things. When the opportunity arises to repeat one of these scripts (pretty much every play, by design), a specific member of the production staff prompts the hosts via the IFB. So when Wes Welker makes his 150th consecutive catch without a drop (which they all knew was coming because of their previous research), the producer says, "Welker 150 Mike Leach tennis balls." And then Gruden talks about the drill that Mike Leach put all his WRs at Texas Tech through where he shot tennis balls at them during practice so they would have an easier time catching footballs on game day. The whole story was hammered out a couple days earlier in a conference room somewhere. Actually, the production crew may be communicating this info via computer monitor instead of IFB (or possibly both), but you get the idea.

There are also a bunch of football-smart guys in a booth somewhere watching for specific things to talk about on every play, and they relay this info to the crew on the fly. So when there's a time out and Jaws talks about how OT Smith used a specific blocking technique to allow RB Jones to do whatever, and he's using the telestrator and everything, all of that was identified & relayed word-for-word to the broadcast crew during the break. All three of those guys are good at what they do, and they're all good analysts, but there's no way they can possibly do deep play-by-play analysis every snap while simultaneously doing their jobs as broadcasters. They can concentrate on being good broadcasters while a separate crew is doing all of the X's and O's for them off camera.

Even so, what they do is very difficult. Try doing play-by-play/color commentary live with 2 other guys while having a someone yammering specific data in your left ear while you're also reading a computer screen for still more data. That's really friggin' hard.

138
by speedegg :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 5:44pm

That gave me a chuckle, bunch of friends live in Pasadena. Some of their neighbors are in film and they complain about execs in "the industry". Not sure they would say their is no maliciousness in decisions.

140
by Kevin from Philly :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 4:39pm

Of course, what Shatner means by that is that no one will pay him what he thinks he's worth.

154
by Mr Shush :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 11:08am

Really? I assumed he was expressing his frustration at Hollywood's incomprehensible failure to give him more big budget features to direct after the Final Frontier.

141
by tuluse :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 4:50pm

Since you seem to know a lot about this. Are all NFL broadcasts like this or is it just the top few games each week that the networks want to make sure they don't screw up?

It sure seems like Collinsworth at least occasionally gets his own input (see Manningham running a poor route), and SNF seems like a prime candidate for the over producing you're talking about.

149
by Jerry :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 5:16am

Don't forget that NBC had the graphic ready to go when Collinsworth mentioned Manningham's sideline problems. It may well have Cris' observation during preparation, but it wasn't spontaneous.

155
by MatMan :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 3:18pm

They're all like this to varying degrees, but MNF is more unyielding than the others. And yeah SNF is working hard to catch up. It looks like they've been trying to brand the franchise as a top-shelf product, same as MNF. Hence the tighter quality control.

Speaking of which, they may succeed, as they have the "flex" option that MNF doesn't. Man that's got to drive the Monday Football People crazy, watching NBC dump crap games for good ones (Colts-Pats was dropped for Lions-Saints this past year) while ESPN is stuck with Chargers-Jags no matter what. I absolutely guarantee that ESPN has been working nonstop to figure out a way to get the same kind of deal.

156
by Dean :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 4:23pm

I'm sure FOX and CBS hat it even more than ESPN.

38
by sundown (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:03pm

They dumped the wrong guy because Gruden is the one I can't stand. That being said, having one of them gone I will at least know for sure who is speaking, because Jaws and Gruden's voices have always sounded very similar to me.

And on an unrelated topic, does anybody else find it strange that Randy Moss' comeback hasn't made it on Extra Points? It's the big topic now, there's even a Patriots connection... I just never get how they decide what to post. Ricky Williams retiring makes it, but Moss doesn't?

40
by dbostedo :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:11pm

I don't find it strange because it's all speculative right now. I'm guessing that if/when Moss actually signs with someone, it will be an Extra Point.

53
by Kyle D. (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 9:01pm

Except Ricky's retirement was also speculative when they posted it. And they recently posted an article speculating on the top 50 free agents--a list which Moss most certainly now is a part of. Their choice for EPs frequently make little sense. I think they get overworked and forget about it at times.

55
by Thomas H. (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 9:15pm

Funny. Because I was looking forward to seeing what the Pats people thought about Moss coming back. Instead I found an article on Conference USA merging with the Mountain West. A. That's not pro football B. That merger was announced months ago.

59
by Big-Hairy-Andy :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:46pm

The site is not "Pro Football Outsiders". College coverage is a significant part of the website's scope.

56
by GMan1 (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:03pm

I think they also tend to not post EPs that are getting a ton of coverage in the mainstream media. Not true 100% of the time, but the Moss story is getting beaten to death by ESPN, unlike the Ricky Williams retirement, so there's no need to post it here.

70
by Mr Shush :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 6:57am

I'd still appreciate the chance to discuss the big stories with other FO posters, rather than blithering random-capitalising ESPN toolbags.

135
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 5:24pm

Pats fans post here, too, you know.

58
by tuluse :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:39pm

I think it's pretty odd there was no extra point for the Bears hiring a GM, QB coach/Passing coordinator, or line coach. I realize most people won't care about the line coach, but there could have been a cumulative "Bears finish assembling staff" story.

62
by Marko :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 11:32pm

I think it's pretty odd that we haven't seen an extra point to an article comparing Linsanity to Tebowmania. The amount of Linsanity media overage is unbelievable. ESPN devotes at least 15 minutes of every SportsCenter to it, and today they were asking analysts from different sports leagues (such as the NHL and NASCAR) about it. Lin even has his own tab on ESPN's crawl.

63
by tuluse :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 11:35pm

You'll have to forgive them, they're under the Linfluence.

71
by Mr Shush :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 7:09am

Who or what is Lin?

72
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 7:43am

nba plaher New York Knicks.

76
by Mr Shush :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 11:05am

Since I posted that, a Lin story with Lin-Tebow comparison elements has made the front page of the Daily Telegraph website. Go figure.

I know nothing about basketball, but am I right in thinking that the key difference is that Lin appears to be actually really good?

81
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:45pm

Yes Lin good . Tebos sloppy. Lin need to cut down on turnovers but not a hige oroblen becausse tema still winning and turnovers not major concern

Rebow below 50% comp pct. Very stinky number.

83
by MatMan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:57pm

Raidejoe, if your wall has a picture of a naked chick & another of you taking a hit off a bong, I believe I've found you on Facebook.

Do you also tweet?

84
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 1:15pm

soujds like some guys knew in college.

Do not have naked chick on wall at home and haven't smoked pot sincd 2008.

Do not od Facebook but have twittr . Raiderjoe_FO. Last football twit was Janiary 29 maybe. Do not go on it a lot.

93
by Ryan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 3:38pm

Please please please tweet more. I will retweet everything you say.

91
by Marko :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 3:09pm

I didn't explain who he is for the benefit of the many non-U.S. posters here because I knew that the media coverage of his story is global and that anyone who wasn't aware of him soon would be.

The fact that he is really good is one of the big differences between him and Tebow. Other differences include the fact that he is the first Asian-American NBA player (and had to overcome the stereotype that Asians can't play basketball); the fact that he went to Harvard (because as an apparent result of this stereotype, no college basketball program would give him a scholarship even though he was the high school player of the year in California as a senior), which plays in a league that doesn't award athletic scholarship and rarely produces NBA players; the fact that he was undrafted out of college and it is very rare for a player not drafted in the first round, let alone one who is not drafted at all, to become an NBA star; the fact that he was cut by two different teams in the past two years and was hardly ever playing for a floundering team and was just days away from being cut when he exploded with a series of incredible games and led his team on what is now a seven game winning streak; the fact that he didn't even have his own place to live and was crashing on the couch of one of his teammates and then subsequently on a couch in his brother's apartment, all of which was within the past two weeks; and most importantly of all, the fact the he is doing this in New York, the largest city in the U.S. and the media capital of the world, for the Knicks, a team that has a rabid fanbase but hasn't won a championship since 1973 and for most of the past decade has been a trainwreck of a franchise.

While many fans didn't (and still don't) think Tebow can succeed as an NFL quarterback, every NFL fan knew who he was years before he was drafted, as he had an incredibly successful and award winning career at a college football powerhouse. In contrast, two weeks ago probably 90% of NBA fans had no idea who Jeremy Lin was, and if you asked the few who did know him to rank the top 250 players in the league, no one would even mention him.

99
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 7:01am

Thanks for that. So essentially he's not really Tebow at all - he's Chinese Harvard basketball Kurt Warner, in a major media market?

101
by NYMike :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 10:13am

He didn't pay his dues in the Hinterland like Kurt Warner, and he's young, but otherwise spot on. Much better comparison than Tebow.

Except for the hype machine.

If this had happened in November, like it would in a normal year, no one outside of NBA junkies would have heard of him.

106
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 3:45pm

He's not as good as Warner, but he is the driving force in turning a losing team into a winning team. Maybe like Antonio Gates? Arian Foster? Actually a better comparison is probably Tom Brady, who came more or less out of nowhere to have a major impact on his team's success but was not really an elite player for the first few years of his career.

108
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 4:00pm

Arian Foster: great player, but definitely not the driving force in turning a losing team into a winning team - the Texans were 9-7 in his rookie season, which he spent almost entirely on the practice squad, and fell to 6-10 the next year, even as Foster led the league in rushing, yards from scrimmage, touchdowns etc.

109
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 4:12pm

Yeah it's hard to make a football comparison because in football it is basically impossible for 1 player to have a major impact on wins a losses without being an MVP candidate. Basketball is totally different because each individual player has a much larger role. A starting NFL QB probably has about as much impact on wins and losses as an NBA 6th man, if that.

117
by Jerry :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:09am

It's also hard to compare Lin's career to this point with guys who established themselves one way or another over the course of years. He could be Kurt Warner (whose beginnings are comparable) or Clint Longley; we may not know for years.

137
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 5:30pm

Unlikely. He blew up in NYC, for a team who has been point guard-deficient for decades, and in front of fans who absolutely revere point guards.

Think if Kurt Warner had played for the Cowboys instead of Aikman. It's something like that.

104
by Intropy :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 2:02pm

Did you know that Ryan Fitzpatrick went to Harvard?

110
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 4:26pm

Lin is not the first Asian-American NBA player. And Yao Ming already dimissed the notion that Asians can't play basketball.

111
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 4:36pm

I also find it amusing that people are suggesting Lin will cause a surge in popularity for the NBA in China. First, ever heard of Yao Ming? Second, anyone who is paying attention will know that basketball is already immensely popular in China. Third, Lin isn't even Chinese, he's an American-born child of Taiwanese immigrants.

112
by tuluse :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 5:00pm

"Lin isn't even Chinese, he's an American-born child of Taiwanese immigrants."

Don't tell China that.

114
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 5:12pm

Sorry, I forgot Rule #1.

116
by Intropy :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 7:59pm

"Chinese" refers to a set of ethnic groups including the Han, Manchu, Zhuang, et. al. in additional to a nationality. The majority of people of Taiwanese nationality belong to a Chinese ethnic group.

136
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 5:27pm

which plays in a league that doesn't award athletic scholarship and rarely produces NBA players

That's long been a misnomer. While the Ivy League doesn't award true athletic scholarships anymore (there were some of the first to start doing it, though), every Ivy has a sufficiently large endowment that in practice any income-deficient student can attend for free, for any reason. They absolutely have athletic scholarships; they just call them something different.

69
by Tom Gower :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:53am

Since I've been posting some XPs lately, I'll share my thinking...
1. There should be at least one XP every weekday. If there's not an XP that day and there's an XP-worthy story, I'll put something up that might generate discussion, like the Prisco free agents article.
2. Ricky Williams retirement wasn't official when I posted it, but it still passed my credibility filter and he made it official later that day.
3. I don't really want to devote too much time to XP'ing things. One a day is fine, unless there's a story that needs to be XP'ed (Routt release fit this for me).
4. There were an awful lot of relatively high-profile hires the first couple weeks of the offseason that we didn't XP. Good thing to XP if there's nothing available, but not necessary, and not worth XP'ing after the fact.
5. I haven't XP'ed Moss because I think he wants to play football in 2012 just as much as he wanted to play in 2011-for the right team, and for the right salary. If somebody signs him, I'd XP that. Personally, I think he's done as a player and have since 2010 ended.

41
by akn :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 7:16pm

If this is a preamble to the Trent Dilfer era of MNF I'm officially done with ESPN.

57
by GMan1 (not verified) :: Wed, 02/15/2012 - 10:05pm

Why would you hate Dilfer? I really need an analyst to tell me that a QB has to manage 3rd downs, play well in the 4th quarter, and be a leader to the team.

67
by andrew :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 1:10am

I would watch it if they brought Tony Realli in as a third man scoring the commentary ATH style, with liberal use of the mute button for inane commentary.

73
by Stats are for losers (not verified) :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 8:38am

Bring back Dennis Miller. If you can't be good, at least be funny.

78
by tuluse :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 11:30am

But Miller was neither ;)

79
by Dean :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 11:57am

Miller was hysterically funny. Problem was critics decided they hated it before he even had done his first game. Add bandwagon syndrome and the occasional joke that goes over the head of the bulk of his audience and he was doomed before he ever got started.

85
by Ryan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:07pm

This post contains more spurious rationale than Albert Fall's 1929 Teapot Dome testimony!

86
by Ryan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:11pm

Football fans enjoyed Miller's commentary the way animal rights activists embraced Erwin Schrodinger!

100
by NYMike :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 10:10am

Not a chance! :>)

143
by The Hypno-Toad :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 7:32pm

85 and 86 were stellar, stellar posts. I salute you. Dennis Miller was a crime against football that almost skated by on his ability to allow the smug to feel smug.

87
by Ryan :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 2:12pm

Miller had as much chance of keeping his commentary job as King Harold II did of conquering the Normans at Senlac Hill!

92
by Phil Osopher :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 3:14pm

+1^(-1/2)

“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.”
-Albert Einstein

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers"
-Voltaire

94
by Dean :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 4:02pm

Except that Harold abandons the hill. If he holds his ground and keeps letting The Bastard charge, he'll chew the Normans up and there's suddenly a very good chance the history of the western world is very different.

103
by Jimmy :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 1:27pm

Harold had a seriously under equipped and poorly fed army whereas William had made exacting preparations prior to setting sail. The battle is remembered because it was a knockout blow (or eyeout blow or whatever - the point is Harold was dead and dead men struggle to wear crowns). Harold died and England fell on that afternoon, if he hadn't, it would almost certainly still have fallen.

105
by Dean :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 3:18pm

Harold's army was underfed and underequipped because they'd walked all the way from Stamford Bridge just to get there in the first place.

If he survives the day, who knows? We can debate that 'till we're blue in the face. But ultimately he made the fatal error of abandoning the high ground and to this old soldier, that was the deciding factor in the battle.

107
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 3:56pm

"Harold's army was underfed and underequipped because they'd walked all the way from Stamford Bridge just to get there in the first place."

I can understand not wanting to queue forever at Fulham Broadway, but they should probably just have got on at Earl's Court or West Brompton instead, and maybe picked up a hotdog from Chubby's on the way.

Or was it Thegn's Court back then?

118
by Jimmy :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 9:24am

I would not even begin to disagree that Harold's premature adoption of the 11th Century victory formation (ie chase your enemy from the field) cost them the battle. Not a good move at all. My suggestion was that everyone remembers the battle because the Anglo-Saxons did commit a major error and decisivly ended the war / incursion. I guess my suggestion is that it shouldn't have been as important as it turned out to be (battles are only as important as the army you lose).

139
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 6:17pm

Martel prevailed at Tours because he sent some expendable militia off the hill to raid the Muslim camp. This prompted a perceived retreat that became an actual retreat, and led to the death of Abdul Rahman.

Granted, he sat on his hill for 7 days before that point.

113
by artmaccuin (not verified) :: Fri, 02/17/2012 - 5:10pm

that's not exactly true. Harold Godwinson had to first march far north + defeat the Danish invasion led by Harold Hardrada, in itself a tough task, then march his exhausted army all the way back south to take on the Normans. it was also hard to keep a sizable army together for more than a few weeks back then b/c of the difficulty of feeding them and the fact that only a small part of the army were professional soldiers (the huscarls) while the great bulk were levies (the fyrd) who couldn't stay away from their fields for too long. William was also in a very precarious position (imagine how logistically difficult an aquatic invasion of that scale was in 1066), as there was no possibility of retreat if the Normans lost. still Harold would probably have won if his shieldwall had just stood their ground on top of the hill instead of chasing after the Norman cavalry. being killed by an arrow was just bad luck, the fortune of battle. it's true that Anglo-Saxon England may not have lasted even with a win at Hastings but it might have. certainly the Normans wouldn't have been able to take another shot at it without a ruler as ruthless, shrewd + bold as William.

also, the Anglo-Saxon ruling class fell, not England as a whole. a Norman ruling class replaced them, ruling over a Saxon populace. eventually the Normans were assimilated, tho it took nearly four centuries (by the time of Henry V, basically). it is true than an A-S England would likely have remained a minor country on the fringe of Europe as opposed to the various continental wranglings of the Plantagenets that laid the foundation for its later rise as a major power. as well as consequences for a bunch of other things, the Crusades (largely Norman in origin; also, no Richard Coeur de Lion) for one.

+1 for the "eyeblow" reference

119
by Jimmy :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 9:28am

Surely I can claim 'England fell' as poestic license.

And yeah, it is a hell of a lot more nuanced than six lines of text on a football website.

95
by tuluse :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 4:03pm

Now this is funny.

80
by Dean :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:12pm

There's one thing above all else that, to me, makes a broadcaster worth hearing.

John Madden had it. Chris Berman, even at his worst, has it. Jaworski has it. Gruden, for all his flaws has it. Dennis Miller has it. Gus Johnson, of course, has it.

Kornheiser never had it. Joe Buck doesn't either.

I can put up with a lot as long as I believe that you genuinely love football. If a broadcaster can convey that, I can put up with foibles and producers in his ear dumbing him down.

If your words in the booth show me that you love football, that trumps all else. At worst, you'll be tolerable. If you don't, you can't succeed.

124
by Lance :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:11pm

Due to some work/life scheduling issues, I rarely got to hear Kornheiser do MNF. However, I regularly listen to and love his radio show, and I have for over 10 years. You seem to think that Kornheiser doesn't "genuinely love football" which is nuts. He probably doesn't love it in the banal way that 75% of ESPN talking heads love it (Cliches and semi-clever nicknames! Fawning interviews with players! Discussions of stupefyingly obvious game strategies!). But that doesn't mean he doesn't love it. It just means that most fans bred on ESPN's dumbed-down sports-talk culture don't like him. It's why he left their national spot on ESPN radio (among other things), and certainly why he didn't jibe with MNF fans.

127
by tuluse :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 6:03pm

It's funny because everything you say ESPN talking heads do that Kornheiser doesn't, he did on MNF.

130
by Shattenjager :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 9:11pm

As someone who has also listened to Kornheiser's radio show for years (and read his columns since early in high school), I will point out that he is a completely different guy on television in general.

He also has written and said before that he was not himself on MNF at all.

142
by Dean :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 5:50pm

I would be the first to admit I don't read/watch him on any other platforms, so I can't speak to any passion for football coming through there. I can say, though, that not passion but rather his disdain for football seemed evident while doing MNF. Having seen him do football, I have no interest whatsoever in seeking out any other platform of his. I'm quite happy not hearing his voice.

145
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 9:07pm

I love his radio show and I like PTI, but I wouldn't argue Kornheiser is passionate about football. I'm not quite sure disdain is the right word, maybe irreverence which seems disdainful compared to the typical worship you see from everyone else. I do think he was disdainful of what Howard Cosell called the Jockocracy and that sometimes that slipped through. But the real issue was that Kornheiser has never been happy when he has someone in his ear telling him what to say, and that's exactly what this job was. He never should have taken it, and (by his own admission) he knew that, but felt it was the kind of opportunity you cannot turn down.

131
by Theo :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 8:29am

ESPN understands like no one that the average viewer is not that smart or knowledgeable.
They want someone to be the voice of the crowd, and someone to be the voice of reason.
Kornheiser plays both roles on different platforms.

125
by Lance :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:12pm

Duplicate post for some reason

151
by apbadogs :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 9:59am

Berman, really? Ugg, he's horrible. Have you ever heard him do a baseball game? He's good at ONE thing, studio host, period.

157
by dmstorm22 :: Wed, 02/22/2012 - 2:19am

I think Berman is really, really good as host of Countdown. I've long grown past his nicknames and seemingly forced-enthusiasm when he does highlights on Teh Blitz, but he's really commanding as the studio host.

96
by Michael LaRocca (not verified) :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 4:04pm

He provided too much actual football analysis. We can't have that.

97
by Theo :: Thu, 02/16/2012 - 5:05pm

I don't even know who I'm listening to most of the time.
Most of the game is just sea shore sounds until the filter in my brain tells me to listen to the guy - like who is injured, who was substituted or who the rookies are. Or when something is mentioned that makes sense to hear.
But most of the time, I just hear yapping, and I don't even notice it.
That's why I hate it when guys start to scream "I don't care what they say but when this guy touches the football... bla bla bla".
I do notice though that in the eyes of the announcers all players who do something good, are ALWAYS the BEST EVER at something.

120
by Nathan :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 10:01am

You guys are crazy, Jaws' QB fawning breathless jowly mini essays complete with thesis and restating the thesis at the end will not be missed by me...

I BELIEVE in REX GROSSMAN. Watch the awareness in the pocket, takes the snap, 3 step drop, 2.75 seconds, nobody open downfield, THROW IT AWAY. Feeling the pass rush and pocket presence are the key to avoiding turnovers in THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE and I'm impressed by what I've seen from REX GROSSMAN TONIGHT.

121
by thendcomes :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 3:07pm

Hahaha well played, you did that better than I could.

I think they're all crazy too. Literally the only thing that he didn't suck at was analyzing the QB position, but even then he still sounded like a dipshit.

129
by Big-Hairy-Andy :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 6:45pm

What cracks me up about Nathan's post is you could take that segment and apply it to any of the three of them, and it would fit just as well.

133
by Nathan :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 2:53pm

No decent Gruden impression would be complete without including a "he used to scare the crap out of me" and a reference to how he calls Peyton Manning "The Sheriff."

126
by rots (not verified) :: Sat, 02/18/2012 - 5:46pm

They all suck. There is no arrangement of announcers that are employed by ESPN that would add anythign to the game. To listen to any of the announcers is to lose IQ by the nanosecond.

They can all diaf, euphemistically speaking.

134
by NFL Stadiums (not verified) :: Sun, 02/19/2012 - 4:08pm

I think they will eventually bring in a 3rd commentator. I would like to see more of Marcellus Wiley covering the NFL.

152
by apbadogs :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 10:00am

No, please god, no, no no Marcellus Wiley.

144
by The Hypno-Toad :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 7:36pm

I assume in the continuing, universe-wide effort to cure me of my obsession with football, he will be replaced with Colin Cowherd. Then he can spend every break in the action explaining why anyone who is passionate about sports is a rube from a small town with nothing better to do.

146
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 9:09pm

Um, really? Because Cowherd is pretty freaking passionate about college FB.

147
by The Hypno-Toad :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 9:23pm

It's a thing that he trotted out on his radio show with some frequency back when I could stomach him. The thesis was that people from big cities with active culture had better things to occupy themselves with than sports, so they tend to be less passionate fans than people from small cities and towns. Whenever he would bring that out, I would wish I could beat him to death using a Jets fan or a Cubs fan as a weapon.
The amount of scorn that jackass regularly heaped upon his intended audience is probably the most off-putting I've encountered in sports media, other than the comment sections on Fox Sports.

148
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Mon, 02/20/2012 - 10:33pm

Hmm. I guess it's kind of true of the West Coast and maybe the South (Texas excluded) but not at all true of the Northeast or Midwest.

153
by apbadogs :: Tue, 02/21/2012 - 10:02am

Have you ever noticed about when Cowherd says something that he thinks is witty or cute he will repeat it over and over and over? He's incredibly annoying.

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