If you're a Football Outsider you're a TRUE player and true players don't stick to one passion only, so here's something else to excite you while you're waiting for the game to start. How about a free $30 chip to play slot machine games for as long as you want?
Ravens-Patriots at 3 p.m. ET, Giants-49ers follow at 6:30 p.m. ET. Enjoy!
Posted by: Rivers McCown on 22 Jan 2012
306 replies , Last at
24 Jan 2012, 5:09am by
Intropy
1
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
by shawnqa800720 (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 9:10am
Can't wait for both games. Should both be way more competitive than most folks are thinking. There's a lot of passion on both Ravens and Patriots teams, as well as a never say die attitude so I expect that one to be a slug-fest.
Pats/Ravens
Slow start until mid third quarter when there is a scoring frenzy on both sides. Final score Patriots 35, Ravens 32
Niners/Giants
Steady defensive battle with intermittent big plays keeping it interesting.
Final Score Niners 24, Giants 20
I think NE stretches it out a little sooner. Just don't see many defenses able to stop that plethora of talent and creativity. 36-20 after a breakout second quarter.
The other game -- well, I haven't seen much of either other than last week. Not sure where 49ers points will come from. Can Smith be good again? A very close game. No real prediction.
I pick the Ravens to win the battle to prevent a shootout but lose the game 24-20, and the 49ers to roll to a 24-17 victory that isn't really as close as the score.
Next week, Brady beats Joe's team in Peyton's place to set the playoff wins record, tie the Super Bowl wins record, and further bolster his candidacy for GOAT.
The Pats O-line is hurt, the Ravens D-line is too strong, the Pats DBs make the most mediocre of QBs look like Montana.
I am not expecting good things for the Pats today.
Steven Tyler sings national anthem. Will be hard to enjoy game commentary with ears bleeding, but fortunately, Simms won't say anything I need to hear anyway.
Here's my astute analysis so far: every time the teams trade 3-and-outs, it's a win for Baltimore, as long as field position doesn't slowly begin to tilt in NE's favor. Other than that (which isn't much), I don't have much yet.
Yikes. Well, NE is as usual just playing sand-lot football and finally having some success on this third drive. Oooh- and as I type, the's a tipped pass and a pick, but a flag is on the play, taking it away and giving NE five more yards.
No rooting interest in this game (Pittsburgh fan, can't bring myself to pull for either team), but I didn't like what I saw of the contact call on Webb. From the one replay, it looked like the receiver initiated the contact. However, I do tend to think defensive backs are under too severe strictures, so I might have a predisposition to see it that way.
Welker turned into Webb, but Webb put his arm across to stop Welker's route. That's not allowed. If Welker had run into Webb's body, as I understand the rule, it would have been fine.
No kidding-- which brings up some interesting ideas on game theory. Next Ravens drive, the obvious call is play-action. But NE should be expecting the play-action, and so they may have people drop into coverage. Which Baltimore should expect, meaning that they should run. Which New England should expect...
Well, this drive for Baltimore was totally uninspired. After the botched run, they more or less gave up. The long play on second down was a crap shoot, and I have no idea what they were thinking on third down-- it was 3rd and 15, not 3rd and 30. It's going to be 10-0 in short order.
It's what? Third and about six, just inside the 10? I don't think Baltimore is going to convert here; I'm guessing a play-it-safe run inside for a short gain, and then a FG.
Yikes. I'm surprised about the pass-- and that it was so close. I feel like taking the FG here was a mistake. Then again, Baltimore hasn't had much success running, so who knows. Perhaps the FG was better?
Hmm...while ordinarily I'd think they should go for it, after last week's performance in short yardage and the Ravens' performance on running plays in this game as well...probably better to take the points.
Well, I don't know how Baltimore is going to match up here and win. It's just too easy to pass in today's NFL, and when you have a pinpoint passer like Brady, how do you stop it?
Sure, but you'd agree that he's not throwing a lot of picks. Thus, we're left with drives like this, were NE completes about 75% of its passes for gains of 7+ yards each time. Because defenders can't do anything to WRs, it's easy for them to get open so we don't even get pressure from the DL and it all resembles sandlot football.
Why on earth are the Ravens playing Jarret Johnson? GET HIM OFF THE FIELD!!!! He's ok at setting the edge, but he sucks at pass coverage and pass rush. So he's useless in this game.
Don't know what the Pats hope to accomplish with a 3-man rush on an obvious passing down. Zero pressure, loads of time to pass...do you really think you can cover those guys forever?
It was actually the other guys. Cowher, I think. They were talking about the weather in SF, but making the exact opposite of the logical conclusion. Like that the wind would affect the running game, or that being forced to run somehow helps the Giants more than it helps SF.
How many uncalled Illegal Formations are there per game?
The near receiver, who was "on the line of scrimmage" was the exact same distance from the LOS as the far one up top was... but that side also had a TE on the line.
I understand that throwing a flag there would be pretty stupid (this was on the Rice run for a 1st down just now before the false start), but why have the rule if you're going to let stuff like that go most of the time?
I don't understand how so many of these guys get into the NFL and either forget how to tackle or can't tackle in the first place. Flapping at somebody is not tackling. Leaping at somebody is not tackling. Just tackle him. If you can't do that, at least hold him up long enough that somebody else can.
Wow-- isn't the obvious play when a team massively sells out the blitz to just throw it to the outside guy in man-to-man coverage? If he can break a tackle, that's a 30 yard gain every time, at least. (And if he can't, it's an easy 5 yard gain, it seems.)
This is a much better game than I expected as a Ravens fan. But I figured B-more needed more of the breaks going their way just to keep up with New England.
by LionInAZ (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 12:30am
That facemask was so obvious I thought the refs would at least rule Smith out of bounds to make up for it. I guess that's what "letting them play" amounts to in the off-season.
There was a pretty bad facemask by the 49ers later on that wasn't called either. Didn't think that the looser playoff refereeing would include letting plays go by that could end in neck injuries.
by Hellrayser (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 9:01am
It's shocking that it went completely unremarked by not only the refs but the announcers, too, who watched the play over and over again.
My wife and I wondered if someone had put acid in our dinner and we'd hallucinated the whole thing. Such a blatantly dangerous call, and it had to have been reviewed since it was a scoring play, right?
by Anonymousfan (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 6:44pm
+1
He couldn't cover Gronk, so he stopped him the only way he knows how: by cheating. If the Ravens make the Superbowl, here's hoping the refs nail him for several large PI penalties.
I will say this - the announcers are insinuating that Pollard caused Welker's injury, but that's really not fair. Welker blew his ACL without being in contact with anybody else.
Ed Reed sitting on the sideline, hoping that his mediocre QB can put together some offense after he's shut down the opposing offense - the story of his life.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:12pm
why was Cundiff running out there hurriedly-- something went way wrong on the sideline-- that's brutal-- they outplayed them and deserved to win. But couldn't do the little things.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:20pm
Outplayed them?
The other team gives you the ball 3 times, gives up a free drive before the end of the half (kneeling out with 1:15 on the clock with 2 TO left), and gets hosed on a bad call that would have probably led to 4 more points (gronk catch at the 10 being rules OOB), and you need a last second field goal to force OT, and you think you outplayed the other team?
The ravens defense was good, and forced TOs, but they also got the benefit of the refs basically calling absolutely NOTHING all game. The Ricky Williams run earlier in that drive for about 10 yards, the raven's tackle literally has both his arms around Spikes chest, and has him in a bear hug, and no hold is called.
Honestly, I hate when the refs swallow their whistles, it just leads to things escalating, and more personal fouls.
The refs swallowed their whistles except for the 6 offensive penalties called against the Ravens and two interceptions overturned by the flags on defense.
Call things tight and those two handfuls of Dennis Pitta's jersey Sterling Moore has on 3rd & 1 yields 1st and goal rather than a shanked FG to end the game. Fantasy often isn't as nice when you have to flesh in the details.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:26pm
The 6 offensive penalties were the sort of things you can't not call... IE, an offensive lineman just standing up. Bad false starts are pretty hard to miss.
Seriously, I live in Baltimore. If you aren't calling a pentaly on the Ravens defense once a drive, you're missing plenty of stuff.
RichC, there was one NE offensive play where the guy on the top of the screen (left side of NE offense) realized at the last second that he was supposed to be up on the line, and so just before the ball was snapped, he took a huge stride forward. No pause, no set, no penalty on NE. Bad calls happen. Don't whine about them.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:28pm
As to the Sterling Moore thing, thats exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't call shit early, you end up with every play being like that. If you let them commit penalties, they're just going to commit more flagrant penalties.
The second INT "overturned by a penalty" was thrown on a play where the Ravens were clearly offsides and the flags had been thrown long before the pass was thrown. That's a classic "free play" for the offense. Brady knew there was no risk to throwing into coverage. You really can't count that one.
There was a lot of uncalled holding in this game. So much so that it would be hard to argue about which team benefited more.
Stop whining, RichC. You're making Pats fans look bad.
I think there might be some factors behind that list:
1) NE didn't feel it could score on Baltimore in a 1:15 drill. That was a NE choice because of what was going on.
2) Nobody hosed anyone on the Gronk play. There's a little thing called a red flag, that a coach can use in a little thing called a challenge. If you want to blame someone, blame BB. Why didn't he challenge there?
3) Last second FG's are bad? I guess beating Oakland in the AFCC on a last-second FG to tie was a bad thing, then.
To the non-crazy-biased NE fans: congrats! NE did not have their A game going today (thinking of that pass Brady missed to Gronk early that could have been a real game changer; thinking of that ridiculous bounce that Balt got on the interception in the end zone), but they won. Only real "luck" they got was the FG miss.
By the way, an overtime in that game would have been really interesting, as FG's were more likely than TD's and we might have had the first ever "both teams get possession even if the first team scores" overtime.
Forgot to add: I agree with your original statement, RichC. No one outplayed anyone else here.
And, I don't think "luck" was on either side here -- great INT luck by Ravens in the end zone, terrible dropped passes by Ravens including the would-have-been game winner. Either both are skill, or both are luck.
1) The Pats sat on the ball at the 10 with a minute left in the 1st half because they clearly thought that it would be more dangerous to try to drive downfield quickly.
2) Well...that depends on whether you think the refs have a responsibility to make the first call correctly. Yes, BB could have thrown the red flag (and I thought he should have) but the refs also made a mistake. I wouldn't call it a game-deciding mistake, though.
3) I have no idea what 3) is about.
The Ravens played a hell of a game and made almost not mistakes. They only made two: the pick by Spikes and the missed FG at the end. The Pats clearly made more mistakes. But they also were slightly better against the Ravens' D than vice versa.
This game easily could have gone either way. The Pats were lucky to win, but they also deserved to win, if that makes sense.
If the Pats want to beat the Giants or the 49ers, Brady has to play better. He was off today. I wouldn't be surprised if Flacco has a better DYAR for the game. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ravens have a better DVOA for the game as a whole than the Pats do. But that's because it's relatively easy to build up DVOA credit moving the ball, even if you blow the FG attempt.
#3? RichC was saying that needing a last second FG to tie is proof of a team sucking. I would beg to differ. Lots of storylines would go differently if FG kicks were made/missed: Buffalo wins a SB, Manning might not get the early "choker" label if a FG is nailed in OT of playoff game in 2000, Brady doesn't get the first SB if AV misses in the snow, etc.
And, I agree with you. NE deserved to win or deserved to lose. They played well enough to win, poorly enough to lose.
By the way, you forgot the Ravens' biggest mistake of the game: they dropped several passes, but they all would not have mattered if Evans catches that TD pass in the last 30 seconds.
If you do live in Baltimore, I suggest you walk around all day tomorrow explaining to everyone that will listen that the Ravens D commits all sorts of uncalled penalties and deserves to do much worse. Maybe you can find some Steeler's fans to back you up, I'm sure it will go fine.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:13pm
did they use their last timeout already? Ice or no ice if they still had one left, you have to use it there-- you can't have a kicker out there literally running to get the play on time. This is on Harbaugh.
by Geronimo (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:18pm
I was thinking the same thing - Ravens had one timeout left and I kept expecting Harbaugh to call it there. Wow - why were they so disorganized on that FG attempt? Could there possibly have been any discussion about whether to kick it there?
by Jerry F. (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:52pm
As long as we're spreading blame, I really felt Flacco should have dumped it off to Ray Rice on the previous down. Rice was a yard or two beyond the first down marker; he would have gotten them a new set of downs, six or seven more yards of field position, and the opportunity for one more shot at the end zone before kicking what would have been a closer field goal. Instead, Flacco nearly threw an interception. He played well all day, but had he done the safe thing right there, the field goal would have been that much more makeable.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:15pm
Patriots should be underdogs against whoever wins tonight-- they are simply not a particularly good team that happened to beat up on a ridiculously weak schedule. Eli will light them up and the Niner defense will do everything Baltimore did, and then some.
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:19pm
Not sure why you say that -- the Patriots outplayed the Ravens all game, and it was only close because of a handful of fluky plays. I expect the Patriots to be favored against either NFC team.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:29pm
We were watching different games, I guess. If Flacco throws to the fullback instead of the receiver on the drive that produced Baltimore's final FG, it's a TD, and the game is tied at the end (presuming NE makes the 2 pt conversion), if Evans secures that pass, Ravens win. If Cundiff doesn't choke and the special teams coach gets him out there on time or they call a Timeout, it's overtime. I'm not absolving the Ravens-- they deserved their fate given the mistakes they made. But they stopped the Patriots when it counted at the end; picked Brady off twice, including when he was trying for the hammer to wrap the game up, and were clearly the better team throughout the 2nd half. I'll give them credit for stuffing Rice on the 3rd and 3-- but other than that I didn't see a lot to smile about in the 2nd half. The Patriots are simply not that good and whoever wins tonight will work them by at least a TD in the Super Bowl and maybe a lot more.
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:34pm
Exactly -- Brady's second interception was on a crazy tip play that is dropped 99.9% of the time. Edelman's fumble, Evans scoring on a TD on which he drags the defender by the facemask for 10 yards without drawing a flag -- the big, fluky plays generally went Baltimore's way. Not that the Patriots were ever on the verge of blowing them out, but they won despite Lady Luck being on the opposing sideline. Good game, though -- hard fought and tough. Hats off to the Ravens.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:29pm
Right.
The biggest problem with DVOA is its essentially a measure of how each facet of a team affects field position.
In the modern NFL, with how easy teams can pass, I don't think field position is all that important. Teams can move the ball easily in the middle of the field. What matters is wheather you can stop them at the 35 (and keep 3 off the board), or stop them from getting in the endzone. Or force a turnover.
The Patriots defense has given up less points than their yard ranking every year buit one for the last 10 years, and the difference in the two rankings doesn't seem to track field position, or how good their offense is at all.
"Clearly the better team" scored a total of 20 points against supposedly one of the worst defenses in the league - despite benefitting from three turnovers, two of which shortened the field considerably. I think you're right; you were watching a different game from the rest of us.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:57pm
I missed where we went back in time. Each team has about 15 guys that were on those teams.
And this giants defense is nowhere near as good as the previous one... and the patriots line is better.. and the patriots have a more versatile offense...
essentially, other than the teams involved, they're not similar.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:08pm
Giants beat a better team at Lambeau this year more convincingly than the team they beat in 2007. The QB is night and day better-- the defense, when healthy, as it is now, is comparable-- and you truly believe this Patriots team is better than that one??
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:17pm
No, I don't think the 2011 Patriots are better than the 2007 Pats. I do, however think they have a better offensive line, and a more diverse offense.
yeah, they don't have Moss, but Welker is better than he was at that point, the RBs are better, and the TEs are drastically better. There's no one guy you can take away and shut down the offense anymore.
As to beating the packers, any given sunday. IIRC, the Patriots had just beat the giants a couple weeks earlier.
No, you either missed my point or decided to ignore it. (Given that it's you, I'm betting on the latter.)
Claiming that a team "will score a lot more than 23 points" is silly, and setting yourself up for a fall. Besides which, this Giants team is much, much better than the 2007 version, and this Patriots team would be whipped up and down the field by the 2007 Patriots.
"and the patriots have a more versatile offense..."
Dude, you can have all the versatile offense you want. If your life depended on the outcome of a football game, and you got to select one team's offense and one teams defense to represent your team, exactly zero people out of a thousand are going to pick this year's NE offense over that one from 2007.
In fact, I'd wager that close to five hundred of those thousand would pick that 2007 team, with the remaining five hundred or so going with the 1999 Rams, the 1996 Packers, some Manning-led Colts team, the 1994 49ers, the 1984 Dolphins, and a smattering of some others (this is off the top of my head; what did I miss?). But zero would pick this Pats offense. (This isn't to say that it wasn't good; but really-- versatile?[/em>
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:33pm
Niners offense is not much worse than Baltimore's-- and their defense is younger, tougher and slightly better. They will force Brady into a lot of situations and probably turnovers he doesn;t want to be in. The Giants are simply a better team than New England right now in just about every phase with the QB almost level-- better running backs, better offensive line, better deep threat receivers. And they will hold 7 back on defense just as they did vs. GB.
by Paul M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:51pm
and the Packers were 15-1-- yee-haw, i can make reservations for Indy after all!!! Watch the game. Giants are playing better right now-- and if SF still beats them, it means Niners were/are a lot better than anyone gave them credit for.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:59pm
"The Giants are simply a better team than New England right now in just about every phase with the QB almost level-- better running backs, better offensive line, better deep threat receivers."
I think a lot of people will disagree with you on this.
Like I said before, can't remember if it was on FO or not, the Giants are the best team left because they are the most balanced - 9-7 is a heckuva lot more balanced than 13-3.
Everyone should just count themselves lucky someone took out the Broncos.
by Ender (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 10:32pm
Giants beat a terrible road team and then the Packers laid an egg making at least 10 unforced drops/incompletes, not sure the Packers would have won against any playoff team that game. You are giving the Giants way too much credit here. They might go to the Super Bowl but they aren't a dominant team and I'd consider them underdogs not that it matters much when you are talking a single game.
No friend. A radically aged Liv Tyler with a white bang sung that anthem.
I figured the Birds v. Pats would be close but wow what a victory for a Patriots Fan and Heartbreaker for a Birds Fan. I guess that's an emotional non-metric way to gauge game. Wonderful for any NFL fan albeit an extreme for a fan of each of the opposing teams.
DVOA does not indicate gravity/emotion per play nor should it ever but this game will likely sully our metrics (including another one maybe I and most of you follow with - win percentage) anyway but it's weird when people (scrubs even, heavens to murgatroid), decide to step up. Sterling Moore does and Lee Evans doesn't make the play their lives the story changes. Cundiff - who I feel deeply bad for - will be scapegoated, and maybe that's right is still a kicker I'd hire. What a game.
by trogolodyte (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:25pm
As a Pats fan (and first time commenter here) I'll say that at the least this game should be in OT -- and that Brady had a very uneven game. I have to say that the hints of an injury seem to have been real. But anyone touting the NFC defenses against this offense should recall that Brady now has two weeks to get right...Just saying.
by brownsrage (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 7:33pm
cannot believe Cundiff was not ready to kick. sheer stupidity, especially for a head coach who moved up from special teams coordinator. that said, i hate the ravens, and am not interested in watching Harbaugh bowl II. screw 'em.
Chenowith nails the National Anthem. Much better than that old lady in the AFC game. Only way it could have been improved would have been a wardrobe malfunction.
I didn't think he sucked, but he was human, which he's usually not.
If I am Flacco, I am pissed. After all of the talk questioning him, he could have become a "clutch" guy if Evans catches that pass in the end zone. He had a good game, but could have had a great game if his guys didn't drop another handful of passes. And, he could have had a chance to win the game if his kicker makes a very easy FG to force OT.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:07pm
Because only Flacco's WRs dropped balls?
Your defense forced 3 turnovers (2 inside field goal range) and you were playing the worst defense in the NFL. Now, I don't think Flacco deserves all the blame, but at some point, you gotta put more than 20 points on the board.
Dude, you'd be happy if you were Flacco after that? Listening to your own team throw you under the bus during the week, have a great game outplaying the opposing team's undisputed HoF QB in the process, throw the winning touchdown to shut up all the critics, and then having the WR drop the ball.
All you can do is put the ball perfectly in the receiver's hands, in the end zone, with less than 30 seconds to go. To have him drop it, to then have to answer questions about your ability to lead a team. Yeah, I do think that would suck.
(And, I have NO dog in the Flacco argument. I could not care less if he's actually good or not. I'm just saying that as a human being, I would be justifiably pissed if I were Flacco right now.)
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:21pm
No, I wouldn't be happy, but at the same time, while Boldin should have caught that ball, there were a couple of other fantastic plays the WRs made. Flacco threw a pass behind the line of scrimmage on 3rd and long, and had a WR beat a defender who should have tackled him, and take it 30 yards for a TD.
And no, thats not all you can do. The last drive wasn't the only drive.
He played a really mediocre game, whether or not he had a chance to win it at the end of the game, against a terrible defense.
Well Flacco averaged 8.5 Y/A, so by your definition, Aaron Rodgers had a mediocre season leading the league with 8.3 Y/A.
Flacco played pretty well, but lost out because the Ravens fringe players weren't up to snuff. They didn't have a 3rd WR all season, Lee Evans was making the key catch of the year after making 4 receptions all year. Ed "Stone Hands" Dickson just can't catch the ball consistently enough for a starting TE. Special Teams cost the victory, and in a way that's fitting b/c the Ravens were bad at special teams all season.
Totally disagree...Flacco played a great game...made one mistake (the int)...many terrific throws, including the (should have been) game-winner to Evans...and I don't have a dog in this fight...
The one thing that costs Flacco still is pocket presence, a couple time he could have slid to an opening in the pocket and made a throw, but instead got sacked or had to throw it away.
If he can improve that, and maybe the Ravens upgrade at LT, and the Ravens acquire a top quality WR, maybe Flacco can take the "next step".
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:24pm
Yeah, and if Sterling Moore tackles Torey Smith 3 yards behind the LOS instead of getting dragged 30 yards downfield, the Patriots win big.
The game isn't played in what-ifs.
Both teams had big drops. Both teams had big plays. Flacco did everything he could have IN THAT DRIVE, but he had plenty of chances early in the game to put points on the board, and the ravens offense couldn't.
Yeah, its unfair to judge him on Evans' drop, but its also unfair to give him credit for the Ravens defense keeping the game from being close.
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:02pm
Now why can't we get the announcers to admit that hes not playing very well. They just seem to come in with a story and keep telling it no matter what happens in the game.
Confused about reviewing the out-of-bounds possibility on the SF touchdown pass. I thought the review was just to make sure the player crossed the goal line with the ball under control. If Davis went out of bounds, he did so twenty yards from the goal line. They can review that, too? What if there was an uncalled holding penalty? Can the ref overturn the touchdown if he spots a hold on the replay?
by snik75 (not verified) :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 8:21pm
Here's a question I bet someone on here can answer. If a defender has a foot out of bounds (on the ground) and touches a player on offense, does that count as the offensive player being out of bounds? If so, Smith was definitely down before he got to the endzone as the defender stepped out, and they were in contact via facemask.
I've wondered this before, about trying to get 2 feet in bounds first. Could a defender intentionally touch down out of bounds and touch the receiver before the catch counts? Curious.
It can't. A player out of bounds cannot make a runner who is in bounds go out of bounds merely by contacting him. A player who is OOB will make a loose ball OOB by touching it.
BALL OUT OF BOUNDS
Article 2 The Ball is Out of Bounds when:
(a) the runner is out of bounds;
(b) while in player possession, it touches a boundary line or anything other than a player or an official on or outside such line; or
(c) a loose ball touches a boundary line or anything on or outside such line.
It's actually not that clear, because the facemask rules are so tilted towards the offense.
A.R. 14.15 LEGAL/ILLEGAL CONTACT WITH FACEMASK BY RUNNER
Second-and-10 on B30. A2 runs right to the B10 where A2 stiff-arms B1 in the facemask and continues
into the end zone for an apparent touchdown. (a) A2 leaves his hand on the facemask for three yards,
but does not grasp it; (b) A2 delivered a blow with the stiff arm; (c) A2 grabs the facemask and controls
the defender (but does not twist, turn, or pull) and releases it after three yards; or (d) A2 twists and turns
the facemask.
Rulings: a) Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. (No foul)
b) A’s ball, second-and-5 on B25. (UNR)
c) Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. (No foul)
d) A’s ball, second-and-5 on B25. (FMM) (12-2-5)
As a Colts fan, I have a fantasy scenario for the SB: Pats are in, SF wins to play against them, it rains hail during the game, and the Irsay gets the right to the stadium set up and leaves the roof open all game! Now that, I would love to see.
More seriously, watching Giants-49ers, I for the first time thought about the fact the SB will be on an indoor turf field. That's got to favor NE against either of these teams, right? I mean, it's not like the weather is usually bad at the SB (I think the Colts played in the only SB with rain), but that fast track will help NE, I think. These teams on TV right now look like mudders!
Why is that a flag on Will Blackmon? Surely once he's called for a fair catch and caught the ball the play is dead, and it doesn't matter if he legs it off with the ball? Unless you are suggesting it is some how delaying the game?
So, another game and a half of this year's playoffs go by without a single flag being thrown for holding. Very few flags in general. The league must have sent instructions out.
That might explain all of the shoving matches after plays. If the refs aren't calling much, the boys on the line are probably giving each other the business in the scrum.
Somehow I don't like the Giants. I love New York, got nothing against any player really. I even like the young receivers.
Maybe it's Eli's spoiled look, Coughlin's "I didn't do it wrong, they players did" expression, or that I think this team is one of the most overrated team of the decade...
I don't know that they're overrated, as I don't hear a lot of people who think they're a great team. I think most rightly feel they're just a team that got hot at the right time. Much like the last NYG SB appearance.
This is the 5th Giants game I've watched this season. Every time, they seem to be completely discombobulated. Crazy plays, bad penalties, turnovers at the worst time. Yet, next thing you know, Eli will throw some wild fifty-yard touchdown pass and the defense will get two sacks and an interception, and they're in command. Never in control, though.
Awesome punt coverage by the Niners there. My tv screen showed one Giant ballcarrier and eight red shirts converging on him. Not another Giant in sight. I would have sat down, too!
All of these ads are intended to get me to switch to Comcast.
Does anybody at Comcast really think that I'm going to switch to Comcast because they keep interrupting Fox's national football feed at the end of the NFC Championship game?
A.R. 16.2 ONSIDE KICK
On the opening kickoff of overtime, Team A legally recovers the ball at the A41.
Ruling: A's ball, first-and-10 on A41. A kickoff is considered an opportunity to possess for the receiving team. Team B is considered to have had an opportunity to possess the ball.
A.R. 16.3 ONSIDE KICK
On the opening kickoff of overtime, Team A attempts an onside kick. A2 legally touches the ball at the A42 but muffs it and it is recovered by B1 at the A43.
Ruling: B's ball, first-and-10 on A43. Team A is not considered to have had an opportunity to possess the ball.
The amazing thing is that if not for the muffed punt, the Niners could have won this game without converting a single third down. Whatever the outcome of the game, they've had every opportunity to put this away and instead have delivered what can only be described as Texans-grade futility. What a strange game to watch.
I know, right? Every time Ross went to the ground, I cheered, because it meant he didn't lose the ball. Even in a field position game, I'd rather see him take a dive than try to break one.
That was excellent coaching. There were many times where he was about to get smashed, but instead of fighting for 3 more yards just dove. If Kyle Williams had done the same, the niners probably would have won.
What.
Mistakes are sending people to the Super Bowl.
Yes, let's carry that ball like that. It's only overtime in the conference championship game with 11 people coming at you. Let's not hold it tight.
Don't fall into the opposite trap of what people were doing after the Pats clobbered the Broncos. The Pats are a better team than they looked today. They played the Giants earlier this year and it was a close game. There's no reason to think the Super Bowl should be different.
I haven't read all of the comments, so I'm sorry if this was already mentioned, but did anyone else notice that Steve Weatherford wears his wedding ring during the game? You could see it clearly as he held the ball on the game-winning field goal.
by Independent George :: Sun, 01/22/2012 - 11:46pm
Incredible game. Much as I feared, the Niners defensive line utterly destroyed the Giants offensive line, taking away the deep passing game. There was one play in particular where both David Diehl and Kevin Boothe got knocked flat on their backs at the snap. I mean, each of them got knocked on their backs individually plenty of times, but that one stood out for me because it happened to both immediately after the snap. OL has to be the top priority in the offseason.
Fortunately, the Giants DL got almost as much pressure on Smith when he dropped back, but at the cost of defending the run. I was pleasantly surprised the Niners didn't run it more in the 4th; the had plenty of time, and they were getting great push the whole game long. Aside from the two long TDs to Davis (now THAT is the Giants secondary I'm accustomed to seeing!), Smith couldn't hit anything tonight.
That said, I have to admit the forward progress call on the Bradshaw fumble was a bad call. It might have been technically in the rules, but I didn't think it should have been called in that instance.
by snik75 (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 12:05am
I didn't see any way the 49ers were winning that with their offense (I picked it up again in the middle of the 4th quarter). They needed a turnover or special teams gaffe. Instead....
Aside from deep passes to Vernon Davis, they really didn't seem to have much that was working.
But the defense certainly did their job. The offense was enough to win with that defense on the field. Now if only the special teams had followed the script...
Both D-Lines dominated against the pass, but the Giants didn't have much of an answer in the run game. Gore was getting holes inside and was consistently getting yards in chunks. I'm really surprised they seemed to get away from it late in the game.
Peter King said Kyle Williams would play a role...
This game would not have been nearly as close but for the rain, which helped the 49ers keep up. The Giants defense really just looks like a different unit; take away two bad breakdowns in coverage and SF scores three points. SF didn't convert a third down until the fourth quarter. Both quarterbacks were hurt by the rain, but without rain, SF gets a few third downs and a field goal or two. Without rain, NYG scores forty points.
by Jay Z (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 12:38am
Really. 40 points? Did you watch what the 49ers defense did here, what they did to Brees? It is a damn good defense. The Giants couldn't even score 40 on the Packers with turnover help. Your comment is ridiculous.
This was about how the 49ers offense looked against the Saints, whom nobody would confuse with a good defense. A few spurts/big plays along with lots of crap. Only saw a few of their games, but I get the feeling that's about their talent level.
by Jay Z (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 2:02am
Unless you are scoring on 80 yards plays every third play, the reason you have 17 possessions in a game is because you are punting all of the time. Or you are turning the ball over, and there were only two TOs total in the game.
The rain didn't hurt the passing game; the constant pressure by both defensive lines hurt the passing game. Davis' two TDs were off blown coverages; Eli's TDs were off of turnovers.
by Jay Z (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 12:29am
What horrible endings to two great games.
Looking at the regular season stats, Kyle Williams hadn't had any fumbles in two years, where Aaraon Ross, who was back returning punts for the Giants late in the game, had two in 2011. (Those may have come on interceptions, I did not look at PBP.) Go figure. I suppose Ross listened when the coaches told him to make extra careful returns, unless he did that on his own.
The 49ers offense wasn't showing much, but the Giants weren't really showing that much either. Manning did not make stupid throws, but there were about a half dozen where he got hit and the ball flopped out there. One time the 49ers had their collision, the other times it just flopped into open area. Some luck there.
Wonder if this SB will be a tough sell to the overall market. Two northeast teams, Giants are going to be perceived as having lucky timing more than Cinderella since they did the same thing 4 years ago, no one except Pats fans has much sympathy for the revenge angle.
Wonder if this SB will be a tough sell to the overall market.
Well, let's think about this...
From the moment the playoffs started, this was the one matchup that the networks wanted more than any other. "Two northeast teams..." Yeah, but half the country lives in the Northeast. New York is the biggest media market in the country, and Boston's in the top five.
And this is a rematch. And a rematch of the most exciting Super Bowl in the past decade.
Or, to put it more delicately, are you f*cking kidding?????
by Jay Z (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 12:59am
Since the Packers and Steelers drew the highest audience ever last year, why not a rematch of that? The Packers aren't in the NE, and I wouldn't consider the Steelers NE either, they're about as NE as Baltimore.
Don't have the last two years of data on there. I think last year was about 46 and 67 on the rating/share. But look at that list, if you can find some big jump where northeastern teams are involved, you're dreaming.
by Jay Z (not verified) :: Mon, 01/23/2012 - 2:07am
And your claim was that the networks are dreaming about having the big market NE teams in the SB. I think the safest comment is that it's unclear what if any impact market size of the two participants has on the rating. The SB attracts so many casual viewers who watch little other football that it might matter more if it's a nice day outside and people want to do something else, or if the roads are too icy to get to the SB parties.
The New York Giants had 17 possessions, which is normally about one and a half games worth. I wonder if they set any records.
Let's see... most punts in a playoff game by the winning team: Weatherford with 12 breaks the old record of 10 (which was a six-way tie, including 2 games by Kyle Richardson of the 2000 Ravens). And Weatherford breaks the record for most punt yards in a single playoff game, win or lose, with 557.
If we include regular season games as well, since 1960 Weatherford is still in 5th place all-time on both punts (a 17-way tie) and punt yards. But he's not even close to Leo Araguz's record of 16 punts for 709 yards (which came, remarkably enough, in a win for the 1998 Raiders), a record that may hold up for a long time.
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Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Can't wait for both games. Should both be way more competitive than most folks are thinking. There's a lot of passion on both Ravens and Patriots teams, as well as a never say die attitude so I expect that one to be a slug-fest.
Pats/Ravens
Slow start until mid third quarter when there is a scoring frenzy on both sides. Final score Patriots 35, Ravens 32
Niners/Giants
Steady defensive battle with intermittent big plays keeping it interesting.
Final Score Niners 24, Giants 20
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
I think NE stretches it out a little sooner. Just don't see many defenses able to stop that plethora of talent and creativity. 36-20 after a breakout second quarter.
The other game -- well, I haven't seen much of either other than last week. Not sure where 49ers points will come from. Can Smith be good again? A very close game. No real prediction.
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What scoring combo nets 32 or 36?
I pick the Ravens to win the battle to prevent a shootout but lose the game 24-20, and the 49ers to roll to a 24-17 victory that isn't really as close as the score.
Next week, Brady beats Joe's team in Peyton's place to set the playoff wins record, tie the Super Bowl wins record, and further bolster his candidacy for GOAT.
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You're right! I meant 34 -- a couple of FGs sprinkled in there. Although, maybe the get a safety late?
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The Pats O-line is hurt, the Ravens D-line is too strong, the Pats DBs make the most mediocre of QBs look like Montana.
I am not expecting good things for the Pats today.
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I fear your short summation is all too accurate.
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Steven Tyler sings national anthem. Will be hard to enjoy game commentary with ears bleeding, but fortunately, Simms won't say anything I need to hear anyway.
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National anthem 1, singer 0. maybe they'll have better luck in the NFC.
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I think you're being generous in calling Steven Tyler a singer.
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That elderly woman's name is Steven? Or was that a typo?
I turned it on halfway through the anthem and just assumed it was Bill Belichick's mother.
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Here's my astute analysis so far: every time the teams trade 3-and-outs, it's a win for Baltimore, as long as field position doesn't slowly begin to tilt in NE's favor. Other than that (which isn't much), I don't have much yet.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Hernandez appeared to be wide open on that second down, but Brady never looked his way.
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Yikes. Well, NE is as usual just playing sand-lot football and finally having some success on this third drive. Oooh- and as I type, the's a tipped pass and a pick, but a flag is on the play, taking it away and giving NE five more yards.
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Heh, it almost looked like Matt Light delivered a forearm shiver to Brady's head when he fell over backwards after the sack. ^_^
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No rooting interest in this game (Pittsburgh fan, can't bring myself to pull for either team), but I didn't like what I saw of the contact call on Webb. From the one replay, it looked like the receiver initiated the contact. However, I do tend to think defensive backs are under too severe strictures, so I might have a predisposition to see it that way.
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Welker turned into Webb, but Webb put his arm across to stop Welker's route. That's not allowed. If Welker had run into Webb's body, as I understand the rule, it would have been fine.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
thanks for clarification
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for IRC football chat! Point your favorite IRC client to bendenweyr.dyndns.org, channel #fo
Or for a web-based solution, just use this mibbit link: http://chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23fo&server=bendenweyr.dyndns.org
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Ravens runs on first down: 0, 1, -7. Think maybe the Pats have been expecting it?
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
No kidding-- which brings up some interesting ideas on game theory. Next Ravens drive, the obvious call is play-action. But NE should be expecting the play-action, and so they may have people drop into coverage. Which Baltimore should expect, meaning that they should run. Which New England should expect...
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Exactly what I was thinking.
Its like in Tecmo Bowl- The Patriots are picking the right plays every time.
Just as I type, the Ravens make huge plays on both sides of ball.
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Well, this drive for Baltimore was totally uninspired. After the botched run, they more or less gave up. The long play on second down was a crap shoot, and I have no idea what they were thinking on third down-- it was 3rd and 15, not 3rd and 30. It's going to be 10-0 in short order.
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Wilfork is having a great game so far. Parts of two sacks and a stuff of Ricky Williams in the backfield.
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Okay, that pass-on-first-down thing worked well...
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But it was set up by the previous runs...
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Flacco underthrew that deep ball. Should've been a touchdown.
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It's only on Flacco that that long bomb didn't go for 6...
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That's totally ignoring the fact that he was throwing on the run while rolling out to the right...great throw!
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It's what? Third and about six, just inside the 10? I don't think Baltimore is going to convert here; I'm guessing a play-it-safe run inside for a short gain, and then a FG.
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Yikes. I'm surprised about the pass-- and that it was so close. I feel like taking the FG here was a mistake. Then again, Baltimore hasn't had much success running, so who knows. Perhaps the FG was better?
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You do not kick it here. Ever.
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Agreed. I think BAL's left side can run on short yardage against NE's all day long.
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Oh my. Against the Patriots offense.
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Hmm...while ordinarily I'd think they should go for it, after last week's performance in short yardage and the Ravens' performance on running plays in this game as well...probably better to take the points.
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Against the Patriot offense, the three points are basically useless. I'd rather miss and leave them backed up against the goal line.
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Great drive for Law Firm.
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How are those three points looking to you now, John?
Idiot.
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So, who thought we'd be watching the might Patriots *running* game drive down the field with a little help from Brady and score the game's first TD?
(Also...not quite sure how "a fistful of the face mask" translates into "grabbed the back of the helmet"...)
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
It was the back of the helmet by the time he let go.
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Well, I don't know how Baltimore is going to match up here and win. It's just too easy to pass in today's NFL, and when you have a pinpoint passer like Brady, how do you stop it?
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Turnovers.
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Sure, but you'd agree that he's not throwing a lot of picks. Thus, we're left with drives like this, were NE completes about 75% of its passes for gains of 7+ yards each time. Because defenders can't do anything to WRs, it's easy for them to get open so we don't even get pressure from the DL and it all resembles sandlot football.
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Why on earth are the Ravens playing Jarret Johnson? GET HIM OFF THE FIELD!!!! He's ok at setting the edge, but he sucks at pass coverage and pass rush. So he's useless in this game.
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Two very nice throws in a row by Flacco. A solid block by 84 (a lot to ask in that situation) could've sprung him for 6.
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Is anything Simms says ever accurate? That's twice today he has said over a replay "and everybody's covered" when people are clearly not covered.
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Don't know what the Pats hope to accomplish with a 3-man rush on an obvious passing down. Zero pressure, loads of time to pass...do you really think you can cover those guys forever?
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The 3rd & 15 sack for -5 was a 3 man rush/8 in coverage...
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Most of the other plays have not gone as well for the Pats' defense.
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Simms: "One thing about Wes Welker is it's like they got so many guys moving around in this offense."
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Wow .... I'm not sure I've ever seen Belichick take a knee like that in the last few years.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
If the Patriots lose, we'll find out that's when TMQ wrote the words "game over" in his notebook.
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hah! Yes indeed. I was especially surprised given the BJGE had run well.
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My wife wants me to say vagina on here.
So,
Vagina.
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Took me a minute to figure it out!
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This CBS halftime show is making my head hurt.
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Shannon Sharpe's presence is a practical joke that has gone horribly wrong.
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It was actually the other guys. Cowher, I think. They were talking about the weather in SF, but making the exact opposite of the logical conclusion. Like that the wind would affect the running game, or that being forced to run somehow helps the Giants more than it helps SF.
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Pats should rush up the middle every play that Ngata is on the bench.
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SO far, this first drive for New England has been effortless.
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Belichick attempts to cancel out Harbaugh's stupidness earlier.
Except he was already ahead, the distance was greater, and they were farther from the goal line. And his team and QB are better.
I'm never going to get over that. I'm still angry. And I hate the Ravens.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
How many uncalled Illegal Formations are there per game?
The near receiver, who was "on the line of scrimmage" was the exact same distance from the LOS as the far one up top was... but that side also had a TE on the line.
I understand that throwing a flag there would be pretty stupid (this was on the Rice run for a 1st down just now before the false start), but why have the rule if you're going to let stuff like that go most of the time?
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Gah! More three man rush from the Pats,GAH!
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My thoughts exactly.
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Why is it so easy to get 12 yards on 3rd and 11?
I really hope the Pats get new coaching for the defense next year.
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Doesn't NE do this all the time?
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Phil Simms calls it "the perfect play." I call it lousy tackling. Should have been tackled for a loss.
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Well, if that's the case, then Baltimore has been engaging in tons of lousy tackling this game!
It's pretty hard for DBs to make one-on-one stops like that. Or, it seems like it to me!
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Whatever. The Pats haven't been getting 30 yards of YAC after every reception.
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You're _not_ seeing all the crappy tackling by the Ravens this game?
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I don't understand how so many of these guys get into the NFL and either forget how to tackle or can't tackle in the first place. Flapping at somebody is not tackling. Leaping at somebody is not tackling. Just tackle him. If you can't do that, at least hold him up long enough that somebody else can.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Wow-- isn't the obvious play when a team massively sells out the blitz to just throw it to the outside guy in man-to-man coverage? If he can break a tackle, that's a 30 yard gain every time, at least. (And if he can't, it's an easy 5 yard gain, it seems.)
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Belichick is killing himself with conservative coaching... never thought I'd write that.
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Huh???
Conservative coaching hasn't caused the 2-0 turnover differential.
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There are a lot of things hurting the Pats. Turnovers happen. BB kicking idiotic field goals on 4th and 1 usually doesn't.
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Exactly
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You understand this is the same playcalling that the Pats have used all season?
They don't have a credible deep threat. Against a team like the Ravens, this is what I expect.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
That's why midgets shouldn't return kicks.
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This is a much better game than I expected as a Ravens fan. But I figured B-more needed more of the breaks going their way just to keep up with New England.
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Was there ever any mention at all to the blatant facemask by Torrey Smith?
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I'm glad somebody else noticed that too. He dragged the DB into the end zone by his facemask, is how it looked.
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That facemask was so obvious I thought the refs would at least rule Smith out of bounds to make up for it. I guess that's what "letting them play" amounts to in the off-season.
There was a pretty bad facemask by the 49ers later on that wasn't called either. Didn't think that the looser playoff refereeing would include letting plays go by that could end in neck injuries.
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It's shocking that it went completely unremarked by not only the refs but the announcers, too, who watched the play over and over again.
My wife and I wondered if someone had put acid in our dinner and we'd hallucinated the whole thing. Such a blatantly dangerous call, and it had to have been reviewed since it was a scoring play, right?
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Would somebody just destroy Bernard Pollard already?
Legally, of course.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
+1
He couldn't cover Gronk, so he stopped him the only way he knows how: by cheating. If the Ravens make the Superbowl, here's hoping the refs nail him for several large PI penalties.
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A Pats fan complaining about cheating? Priceless.
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Did Bernard Pollard just injure somebody else on the Pats? Goodell is going to have to ban him.
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I will say this - the announcers are insinuating that Pollard caused Welker's injury, but that's really not fair. Welker blew his ACL without being in contact with anybody else.
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Yeah, one of those weasel comments where they say but no folks, we don't meant to imply that it was his fault.
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Brady's leaping TD there nearly gave me a heart-attack.
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Imagine if he'd been hurt and Pollard was in on the tackle.
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It would help the Pats immeasurably if the Ravens were to make a mistake.
Seriously - I had typed that before the pick. The Ravens hadn't made a mistake all day before that.
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...I told you the Pats don't have a deep threat. Terrible play call. Matthew Slater? Really? Terrible pass.
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Wow. The Ravens are very good at playing football defense.
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Would someone on TV please say Brady is having an awful game
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I wouldn't say "awful game". He's made a lot of good plays. But he's thrown a couple of awful interceptions.
I think he was more careful when he was younger and his ego wasn't as big as it is now.
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He's missed quite a few throws too.
However it must be remembered that the Baltimore defense is really, really good.
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I will loose my mind over all the Defense wins championship nonsense if it becomes Ravens-49'ers in the SB.
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Vince Wilfork may havve just won the game. On consecutive plays he absolutelly blows up the middle of the line.
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Indeed!
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Clock-management yakety sax. The Ravens just lost themselves, what, 30 seconds?
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For the life of me, I don't get the empty backfield inside 2 minutes with a lead.
I know research is inconclusive but it seems like a no-brainer to hint the run.
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Down by 3, 2 minutes left. It's Flacco Time!
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Ed Reed sitting on the sideline, hoping that his mediocre QB can put together some offense after he's shut down the opposing offense - the story of his life.
BOLDIN
Re: Conference Championship Discussion
Yeah, assigning Edelman to cover Boldin? Bad idea. Leaving him uncovered? Worse idea.
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look out! look out!
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Seemed to me Evans had control, two feet inbounds and THEN it was swatted away.
Cundiff.
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On the other hand, Torrey Smith's TD should have been brought back by his facemask infraction, so it evens out.
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WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!
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Just brutal. I hate watching this. I'm going to be sick.
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I can't think of a worse way for this game to end.
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Laces Out Dan!
Damn, where's BWW when you need them?
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Of all teams to come to Indy for the Super Bowl, it has to be the Patriots... Hopefully the NFC champ will smack them down hard.
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why was Cundiff running out there hurriedly-- something went way wrong on the sideline-- that's brutal-- they outplayed them and deserved to win. But couldn't do the little things.
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Outplayed them?
The other team gives you the ball 3 times, gives up a free drive before the end of the half (kneeling out with 1:15 on the clock with 2 TO left), and gets hosed on a bad call that would have probably led to 4 more points (gronk catch at the 10 being rules OOB), and you need a last second field goal to force OT, and you think you outplayed the other team?
The ravens defense was good, and forced TOs, but they also got the benefit of the refs basically calling absolutely NOTHING all game. The Ricky Williams run earlier in that drive for about 10 yards, the raven's tackle literally has both his arms around Spikes chest, and has him in a bear hug, and no hold is called.
Honestly, I hate when the refs swallow their whistles, it just leads to things escalating, and more personal fouls.
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The refs swallowed their whistles except for the 6 offensive penalties called against the Ravens and two interceptions overturned by the flags on defense.
Call things tight and those two handfuls of Dennis Pitta's jersey Sterling Moore has on 3rd & 1 yields 1st and goal rather than a shanked FG to end the game. Fantasy often isn't as nice when you have to flesh in the details.
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The 6 offensive penalties were the sort of things you can't not call... IE, an offensive lineman just standing up. Bad false starts are pretty hard to miss.
Seriously, I live in Baltimore. If you aren't calling a pentaly on the Ravens defense once a drive, you're missing plenty of stuff.
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RichC, there was one NE offensive play where the guy on the top of the screen (left side of NE offense) realized at the last second that he was supposed to be up on the line, and so just before the ball was snapped, he took a huge stride forward. No pause, no set, no penalty on NE. Bad calls happen. Don't whine about them.
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Haven't you heard...it's only whining when we do it.
When RichC does it, it's "fact".
After all, he lives in Baltimore.
Duh.
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Are you seriously arguing that the refs didn't swallow their whistles tonight? Seriously?
Or are you just putting words in my mouth that I never said?
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I'm not whining about any specific calls Purds. Of course the patriots commited a bunch of uncalled penalties.
I simply said that I hate when the officials swallow the whistles because it just makes things worse.
I've admitted several times that both teams commited a ton of uncalled penalties.
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But why did swallowing the whistle help Baltimore and not both teams? You don't think NE's players are choir boys, do you?
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No, I don't.
Baltimore typically commits more penalties than NE. They gain more when you stop committing penalties.
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As to the Sterling Moore thing, thats exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't call shit early, you end up with every play being like that. If you let them commit penalties, they're just going to commit more flagrant penalties.
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The second INT "overturned by a penalty" was thrown on a play where the Ravens were clearly offsides and the flags had been thrown long before the pass was thrown. That's a classic "free play" for the offense. Brady knew there was no risk to throwing into coverage. You really can't count that one.
There was a lot of uncalled holding in this game. So much so that it would be hard to argue about which team benefited more.
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Agreed (great throw by Brady -- why not take a chance?).
Agreed.
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Stop whining, RichC. You're making Pats fans look bad.
I think there might be some factors behind that list:
1) NE didn't feel it could score on Baltimore in a 1:15 drill. That was a NE choice because of what was going on.
2) Nobody hosed anyone on the Gronk play. There's a little thing called a red flag, that a coach can use in a little thing called a challenge. If you want to blame someone, blame BB. Why didn't he challenge there?
3) Last second FG's are bad? I guess beating Oakland in the AFCC on a last-second FG to tie was a bad thing, then.
To the non-crazy-biased NE fans: congrats! NE did not have their A game going today (thinking of that pass Brady missed to Gronk early that could have been a real game changer; thinking of that ridiculous bounce that Balt got on the interception in the end zone), but they won. Only real "luck" they got was the FG miss.
By the way, an overtime in that game would have been really interesting, as FG's were more likely than TD's and we might have had the first ever "both teams get possession even if the first team scores" overtime.
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Forgot to add: I agree with your original statement, RichC. No one outplayed anyone else here.
And, I don't think "luck" was on either side here -- great INT luck by Ravens in the end zone, terrible dropped passes by Ravens including the would-have-been game winner. Either both are skill, or both are luck.
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My perspective:
1) The Pats sat on the ball at the 10 with a minute left in the 1st half because they clearly thought that it would be more dangerous to try to drive downfield quickly.
2) Well...that depends on whether you think the refs have a responsibility to make the first call correctly. Yes, BB could have thrown the red flag (and I thought he should have) but the refs also made a mistake. I wouldn't call it a game-deciding mistake, though.
3) I have no idea what 3) is about.
The Ravens played a hell of a game and made almost not mistakes. They only made two: the pick by Spikes and the missed FG at the end. The Pats clearly made more mistakes. But they also were slightly better against the Ravens' D than vice versa.
This game easily could have gone either way. The Pats were lucky to win, but they also deserved to win, if that makes sense.
If the Pats want to beat the Giants or the 49ers, Brady has to play better. He was off today. I wouldn't be surprised if Flacco has a better DYAR for the game. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ravens have a better DVOA for the game as a whole than the Pats do. But that's because it's relatively easy to build up DVOA credit moving the ball, even if you blow the FG attempt.
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#3? RichC was saying that needing a last second FG to tie is proof of a team sucking. I would beg to differ. Lots of storylines would go differently if FG kicks were made/missed: Buffalo wins a SB, Manning might not get the early "choker" label if a FG is nailed in OT of playoff game in 2000, Brady doesn't get the first SB if AV misses in the snow, etc.
And, I agree with you. NE deserved to win or deserved to lose. They played well enough to win, poorly enough to lose.
By the way, you forgot the Ravens' biggest mistake of the game: they dropped several passes, but they all would not have mattered if Evans catches that TD pass in the last 30 seconds.
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"#3? RichC was saying that needing a last second FG to tie is proof of a team sucking. "
I said no such thing.
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RichC,
If you do live in Baltimore, I suggest you walk around all day tomorrow explaining to everyone that will listen that the Ravens D commits all sorts of uncalled penalties and deserves to do much worse. Maybe you can find some Steeler's fans to back you up, I'm sure it will go fine.
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Oher falsely starts about twenty times a game, but he's not on their defense.
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The refs swallowed their whistles meant giving Torrey Smith a TD while he was dragging a defender behind him by the facemask. What more do you want?
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The refs swallowing their whistles meant giving Torrey Smith a TD while he was dragging a defender behind him by the facemask. What more do you want?
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CUUUNDIFFFFFFF!1!!
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did they use their last timeout already? Ice or no ice if they still had one left, you have to use it there-- you can't have a kicker out there literally running to get the play on time. This is on Harbaugh.
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I'd actually place more blame on Evans. There's no way the DB should have knocked that ball out of his hands in the end zone.
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Evans cost them the win-- but Harbaugh or the special teams coach or someone cost them the tie.
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I was thinking the same thing - Ravens had one timeout left and I kept expecting Harbaugh to call it there. Wow - why were they so disorganized on that FG attempt? Could there possibly have been any discussion about whether to kick it there?
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As long as we're spreading blame, I really felt Flacco should have dumped it off to Ray Rice on the previous down. Rice was a yard or two beyond the first down marker; he would have gotten them a new set of downs, six or seven more yards of field position, and the opportunity for one more shot at the end zone before kicking what would have been a closer field goal. Instead, Flacco nearly threw an interception. He played well all day, but had he done the safe thing right there, the field goal would have been that much more makeable.
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Patriots should be underdogs against whoever wins tonight-- they are simply not a particularly good team that happened to beat up on a ridiculously weak schedule. Eli will light them up and the Niner defense will do everything Baltimore did, and then some.
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Not sure why you say that -- the Patriots outplayed the Ravens all game, and it was only close because of a handful of fluky plays. I expect the Patriots to be favored against either NFC team.
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We were watching different games, I guess. If Flacco throws to the fullback instead of the receiver on the drive that produced Baltimore's final FG, it's a TD, and the game is tied at the end (presuming NE makes the 2 pt conversion), if Evans secures that pass, Ravens win. If Cundiff doesn't choke and the special teams coach gets him out there on time or they call a Timeout, it's overtime. I'm not absolving the Ravens-- they deserved their fate given the mistakes they made. But they stopped the Patriots when it counted at the end; picked Brady off twice, including when he was trying for the hammer to wrap the game up, and were clearly the better team throughout the 2nd half. I'll give them credit for stuffing Rice on the 3rd and 3-- but other than that I didn't see a lot to smile about in the 2nd half. The Patriots are simply not that good and whoever wins tonight will work them by at least a TD in the Super Bowl and maybe a lot more.
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Exactly -- Brady's second interception was on a crazy tip play that is dropped 99.9% of the time. Edelman's fumble, Evans scoring on a TD on which he drags the defender by the facemask for 10 yards without drawing a flag -- the big, fluky plays generally went Baltimore's way. Not that the Patriots were ever on the verge of blowing them out, but they won despite Lady Luck being on the opposing sideline. Good game, though -- hard fought and tough. Hats off to the Ravens.
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If you think the Pats outplayed the Ravens, it sure is odd how Baltimore averaged 5.7 yards per play and NE averaged 4.9.
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We'll see how the DVOA scores come out this week. My prediction is that the Patriots will be ahead comfortably.
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Scoreboard.
The Pats consistently give up fewer points than would be expected if you only look at the yards per play statistic.
Because, really, it doesn't matter if you have a drive that makes 60 yards in 10 plays or one that makes 60 yards in 12 plays.
Average stats are often overrated. (I would say that, on average, they are overrated. :)
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Right.
The biggest problem with DVOA is its essentially a measure of how each facet of a team affects field position.
In the modern NFL, with how easy teams can pass, I don't think field position is all that important. Teams can move the ball easily in the middle of the field. What matters is wheather you can stop them at the 35 (and keep 3 off the board), or stop them from getting in the endzone. Or force a turnover.
The Patriots defense has given up less points than their yard ranking every year buit one for the last 10 years, and the difference in the two rankings doesn't seem to track field position, or how good their offense is at all.
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"Clearly the better team" scored a total of 20 points against supposedly one of the worst defenses in the league - despite benefitting from three turnovers, two of which shortened the field considerably. I think you're right; you were watching a different game from the rest of us.
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The niner's offense is worse than baltimore's. The giant's defense is a lot worse than baltimore's.
Yeah, the giants will probably score points on the Patriots, but the Patriots will score a lot more than 23 on them.
The niners will slow down the Patriots, but probably not much more than baltimore.
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Yeah, the giants will probably score points on the Patriots, but the Patriots will score a lot more than 23 on them.
"We're only going to score seventeen points? Ha ha ha. Okay. Is Plax playing defense?"
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I missed where we went back in time. Each team has about 15 guys that were on those teams.
And this giants defense is nowhere near as good as the previous one... and the patriots line is better.. and the patriots have a more versatile offense...
essentially, other than the teams involved, they're not similar.
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Giants beat a better team at Lambeau this year more convincingly than the team they beat in 2007. The QB is night and day better-- the defense, when healthy, as it is now, is comparable-- and you truly believe this Patriots team is better than that one??
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No, I don't think the 2011 Patriots are better than the 2007 Pats. I do, however think they have a better offensive line, and a more diverse offense.
yeah, they don't have Moss, but Welker is better than he was at that point, the RBs are better, and the TEs are drastically better. There's no one guy you can take away and shut down the offense anymore.
As to beating the packers, any given sunday. IIRC, the Patriots had just beat the giants a couple weeks earlier.
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No, you either missed my point or decided to ignore it. (Given that it's you, I'm betting on the latter.)
Claiming that a team "will score a lot more than 23 points" is silly, and setting yourself up for a fall. Besides which, this Giants team is much, much better than the 2007 version, and this Patriots team would be whipped up and down the field by the 2007 Patriots.
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"and the patriots have a more versatile offense..."
Dude, you can have all the versatile offense you want. If your life depended on the outcome of a football game, and you got to select one team's offense and one teams defense to represent your team, exactly zero people out of a thousand are going to pick this year's NE offense over that one from 2007.
In fact, I'd wager that close to five hundred of those thousand would pick that 2007 team, with the remaining five hundred or so going with the 1999 Rams, the 1996 Packers, some Manning-led Colts team, the 1994 49ers, the 1984 Dolphins, and a smattering of some others (this is off the top of my head; what did I miss?). But zero would pick this Pats offense. (This isn't to say that it wasn't good; but really-- versatile?[/em>
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A few hundred are probably going to ask whether the 2007 offense is hypothetically presumed to know the defensive plays or not.
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Niners offense is not much worse than Baltimore's-- and their defense is younger, tougher and slightly better. They will force Brady into a lot of situations and probably turnovers he doesn;t want to be in. The Giants are simply a better team than New England right now in just about every phase with the QB almost level-- better running backs, better offensive line, better deep threat receivers. And they will hold 7 back on defense just as they did vs. GB.
And the game will be on a neutral field.
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The Giants were 9-7 this year.
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and the Packers were 15-1-- yee-haw, i can make reservations for Indy after all!!! Watch the game. Giants are playing better right now-- and if SF still beats them, it means Niners were/are a lot better than anyone gave them credit for.
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"The Giants are simply a better team than New England right now in just about every phase with the QB almost level-- better running backs, better offensive line, better deep threat receivers."
I think a lot of people will disagree with you on this.
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I hate to think I agree with RichC on something, but I think I agree on RichC on this one.
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Like I said before, can't remember if it was on FO or not, the Giants are the best team left because they are the most balanced - 9-7 is a heckuva lot more balanced than 13-3.
Everyone should just count themselves lucky someone took out the Broncos.
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Giants beat a terrible road team and then the Packers laid an egg making at least 10 unforced drops/incompletes, not sure the Packers would have won against any playoff team that game. You are giving the Giants way too much credit here. They might go to the Super Bowl but they aren't a dominant team and I'd consider them underdogs not that it matters much when you are talking a single game.
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Baltimore's defense made the Patriots play their worse game offensively.
I can't believe they lost on a missed field goal.
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Is that Steve Tyler behind Bilichick?
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Bon Jovi was busy at the Giant's game.
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They've pointed out that Tyler is in the Patriots ownership box about 25 times over the course of the game. So yeah, probably.
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I was away, only saw the last quarter and a half.
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Which is weird, because American Idol is on Fox, right?
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No friend. A radically aged Liv Tyler with a white bang sung that anthem.
I figured the Birds v. Pats would be close but wow what a victory for a Patriots Fan and Heartbreaker for a Birds Fan. I guess that's an emotional non-metric way to gauge game. Wonderful for any NFL fan albeit an extreme for a fan of each of the opposing teams.
DVOA does not indicate gravity/emotion per play nor should it ever but this game will likely sully our metrics (including another one maybe I and most of you follow with - win percentage) anyway but it's weird when people (scrubs even, heavens to murgatroid), decide to step up. Sterling Moore does and Lee Evans doesn't make the play their lives the story changes. Cundiff - who I feel deeply bad for - will be scapegoated, and maybe that's right is still a kicker I'd hire. What a game.
Allah oo Snack Bar!
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As a Pats fan (and first time commenter here) I'll say that at the least this game should be in OT -- and that Brady had a very uneven game. I have to say that the hints of an injury seem to have been real. But anyone touting the NFC defenses against this offense should recall that Brady now has two weeks to get right...Just saying.
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cannot believe Cundiff was not ready to kick. sheer stupidity, especially for a head coach who moved up from special teams coordinator. that said, i hate the ravens, and am not interested in watching Harbaugh bowl II. screw 'em.
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Chenowith nails the National Anthem. Much better than that old lady in the AFC game. Only way it could have been improved would have been a wardrobe malfunction.
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I'm ok with any anthem as long as they don't sing that awful 'god bless america'.
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Brady knew it - during the trophy presentation his first words were "I sucked pretty bad today."
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Did he really say that? That's funny.
I didn't think he sucked, but he was human, which he's usually not.
If I am Flacco, I am pissed. After all of the talk questioning him, he could have become a "clutch" guy if Evans catches that pass in the end zone. He had a good game, but could have had a great game if his guys didn't drop another handful of passes. And, he could have had a chance to win the game if his kicker makes a very easy FG to force OT.
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Because only Flacco's WRs dropped balls?
Your defense forced 3 turnovers (2 inside field goal range) and you were playing the worst defense in the NFL. Now, I don't think Flacco deserves all the blame, but at some point, you gotta put more than 20 points on the board.
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Dude, you'd be happy if you were Flacco after that? Listening to your own team throw you under the bus during the week, have a great game outplaying the opposing team's undisputed HoF QB in the process, throw the winning touchdown to shut up all the critics, and then having the WR drop the ball.
All you can do is put the ball perfectly in the receiver's hands, in the end zone, with less than 30 seconds to go. To have him drop it, to then have to answer questions about your ability to lead a team. Yeah, I do think that would suck.
(And, I have NO dog in the Flacco argument. I could not care less if he's actually good or not. I'm just saying that as a human being, I would be justifiably pissed if I were Flacco right now.)
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No, I wouldn't be happy, but at the same time, while Boldin should have caught that ball, there were a couple of other fantastic plays the WRs made. Flacco threw a pass behind the line of scrimmage on 3rd and long, and had a WR beat a defender who should have tackled him, and take it 30 yards for a TD.
And no, thats not all you can do. The last drive wasn't the only drive.
He played a really mediocre game, whether or not he had a chance to win it at the end of the game, against a terrible defense.
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Well Flacco averaged 8.5 Y/A, so by your definition, Aaron Rodgers had a mediocre season leading the league with 8.3 Y/A.
Flacco played pretty well, but lost out because the Ravens fringe players weren't up to snuff. They didn't have a 3rd WR all season, Lee Evans was making the key catch of the year after making 4 receptions all year. Ed "Stone Hands" Dickson just can't catch the ball consistently enough for a starting TE. Special Teams cost the victory, and in a way that's fitting b/c the Ravens were bad at special teams all season.
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Totally disagree...Flacco played a great game...made one mistake (the int)...many terrific throws, including the (should have been) game-winner to Evans...and I don't have a dog in this fight...
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The one thing that costs Flacco still is pocket presence, a couple time he could have slid to an opening in the pocket and made a throw, but instead got sacked or had to throw it away.
If he can improve that, and maybe the Ravens upgrade at LT, and the Ravens acquire a top quality WR, maybe Flacco can take the "next step".
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Because if Lee Evans wraps up that pass in the end zone, no one ever calls Joe Flacco a non-clutch player again.
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Yeah, and if Sterling Moore tackles Torey Smith 3 yards behind the LOS instead of getting dragged 30 yards downfield, the Patriots win big.
The game isn't played in what-ifs.
Both teams had big drops. Both teams had big plays. Flacco did everything he could have IN THAT DRIVE, but he had plenty of chances early in the game to put points on the board, and the ravens offense couldn't.
Yeah, its unfair to judge him on Evans' drop, but its also unfair to give him credit for the Ravens defense keeping the game from being close.
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You missed the point entirely.
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Now why can't we get the announcers to admit that hes not playing very well. They just seem to come in with a story and keep telling it no matter what happens in the game.
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Confused about reviewing the out-of-bounds possibility on the SF touchdown pass. I thought the review was just to make sure the player crossed the goal line with the ball under control. If Davis went out of bounds, he did so twenty yards from the goal line. They can review that, too? What if there was an uncalled holding penalty? Can the ref overturn the touchdown if he spots a hold on the replay?
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Any time a play is reviewed, the entire play is reviewed.
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An uncalled penalty can never be called by replay...nor can a called penalty be overturned by replay...
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Not true, 12 men on the field at least can be called (or reversed, I would think) on replay.
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Also if a ball is tipped they can reverse a pass interference call.
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Pass interference can not be reversed unless there is a challenge that the ball was tipped.
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I hate "scoop n score."
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Here's a question I bet someone on here can answer. If a defender has a foot out of bounds (on the ground) and touches a player on offense, does that count as the offensive player being out of bounds? If so, Smith was definitely down before he got to the endzone as the defender stepped out, and they were in contact via facemask.
I've wondered this before, about trying to get 2 feet in bounds first. Could a defender intentionally touch down out of bounds and touch the receiver before the catch counts? Curious.
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You weren't the only person wondering about of OOB can be "conducted" like that.
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That's an interesting notion. Put down an electrified sheet of metal that runs the length of the sideline. Make it real easy for the refs to call.
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It can't. A player out of bounds cannot make a runner who is in bounds go out of bounds merely by contacting him. A player who is OOB will make a loose ball OOB by touching it.
BALL OUT OF BOUNDS
Article 2 The Ball is Out of Bounds when:
(a) the runner is out of bounds;
(b) while in player possession, it touches a boundary line or anything other than a player or an official on or outside such line; or
(c) a loose ball touches a boundary line or anything on or outside such line.
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It doesn't really matter since Smith should have been called for the facemask. The whole play should have been nullified.
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It's actually not that clear, because the facemask rules are so tilted towards the offense.
A.R. 14.15 LEGAL/ILLEGAL CONTACT WITH FACEMASK BY RUNNER
Second-and-10 on B30. A2 runs right to the B10 where A2 stiff-arms B1 in the facemask and continues
into the end zone for an apparent touchdown. (a) A2 leaves his hand on the facemask for three yards,
but does not grasp it; (b) A2 delivered a blow with the stiff arm; (c) A2 grabs the facemask and controls
the defender (but does not twist, turn, or pull) and releases it after three yards; or (d) A2 twists and turns
the facemask.
Rulings: a) Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. (No foul)
b) A’s ball, second-and-5 on B25. (UNR)
c) Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. (No foul)
d) A’s ball, second-and-5 on B25. (FMM) (12-2-5)
One wish!
As a Colts fan, I have a fantasy scenario for the SB: Pats are in, SF wins to play against them, it rains hail during the game, and the Irsay gets the right to the stadium set up and leaves the roof open all game! Now that, I would love to see.
More seriously, watching Giants-49ers, I for the first time thought about the fact the SB will be on an indoor turf field. That's got to favor NE against either of these teams, right? I mean, it's not like the weather is usually bad at the SB (I think the Colts played in the only SB with rain), but that fast track will help NE, I think. These teams on TV right now look like mudders!
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I'm confused. Why does Fox think that replacing Bruce Willis with Keither Sutherland will make people watch "Mercury Rising: The TV series"?
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Somebody needs to calm Vernon Davis way down.
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I don't know what they're taking in the locker room, but it looks like good stuff to take at a party.
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It looks like Alex Smith is set to take off running on every blitz. The Giants should have a linebacker spy on him whenever they blitz.
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Why is that a flag on Will Blackmon? Surely once he's called for a fair catch and caught the ball the play is dead, and it doesn't matter if he legs it off with the ball? Unless you are suggesting it is some how delaying the game?
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It's a penalty to discourage people from doing it. If it was risk free, players would try when appropriate it to see if the ref would catch them.
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Suppose that makes sense.
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So, another game and a half of this year's playoffs go by without a single flag being thrown for holding. Very few flags in general. The league must have sent instructions out.
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To be fair, both offensive lines played really well this half.
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That might explain all of the shoving matches after plays. If the refs aren't calling much, the boys on the line are probably giving each other the business in the scrum.
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Then call that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl-s5O7n95A&feature=related
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Piece of Evidence 24092384 why QB rating isn't useful: through the first half, Alex Smith has a 20 point better QB rating than Eli.
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Well look at the score. 10-7.
[/sarcasm]
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Peter, Paul, and Tuck!
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Regarding the Vernon Savis TD, if the call was reversed would the celebration penalty stood?
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yes they said it would be after the play... so either on kickoff when it stood, or on the spot OOB when it wasn't.
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Yes, the ref said it would be assigned at the LOS.
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Vernon Davis is looking like a good pick for the postseason ff competition.
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You'd think?
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What the heck was Kenny Phillips doing on that TD play? He just waved Vernon Davis through at the LOS.
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Somehow I don't like the Giants. I love New York, got nothing against any player really. I even like the young receivers.
Maybe it's Eli's spoiled look, Coughlin's "I didn't do it wrong, they players did" expression, or that I think this team is one of the most overrated team of the decade...
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I don't know that they're overrated, as I don't hear a lot of people who think they're a great team. I think most rightly feel they're just a team that got hot at the right time. Much like the last NYG SB appearance.
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The niners should start bleeding the clock; they are ahead; and their defence can use a rest, having been on the field a long time.
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Guess we are going to find out if defense wins championships real soon!
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Are the Niners out of linemen? or is Justin Smith is a better backup offensive lineman than a real backup offensive lineman?
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I suspect it was just Jim Harbaugh outsmarting himself again.
On the other hand, it was fun to see Justin Smith getting a taste of what it's like to be on the other side!
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Guess we are going to find out real soon if defense does win championships!
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This is the 5th Giants game I've watched this season. Every time, they seem to be completely discombobulated. Crazy plays, bad penalties, turnovers at the worst time. Yet, next thing you know, Eli will throw some wild fifty-yard touchdown pass and the defense will get two sacks and an interception, and they're in command. Never in control, though.
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For instance, a punt might take a crazy bounce and hit the return man's knee...
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Right on queueue...
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Player doesn't know you can't advance your own kick?
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Running fast in a straight line is about all Devin Thomas is good for; little wonder he'd want to show his stuff.
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Awesome punt coverage by the Niners there. My tv screen showed one Giant ballcarrier and eight red shirts converging on him. Not another Giant in sight. I would have sat down, too!
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Cue up Joe Buck on how good Eli Manning is in the 4th quarter, take 3.
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For a moment there, I thought Cruz was gonna put that ball on his helmet and catch it. And something tells me I wasn't the only one thinking that.
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+1
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Did anybody else just lose their feed in the middle of the punt return? All of a sudden, we had a lovely Comcast ad instead of football.
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And they just did so again.
I hate Comcast.
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And they did so a third time.
All of these ads are intended to get me to switch to Comcast.
Does anybody at Comcast really think that I'm going to switch to Comcast because they keep interrupting Fox's national football feed at the end of the NFC Championship game?
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Does the ad say "Are you tired of interruptions in the broadcast? Switch to Comcast!"
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...and now Comcast just pre-empted the punt so I can get yet another Comcast ad.
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Don't worry. Nothing interesting happens during punts anyway.
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I'm not sure if this is before or after overtime, but amusing either way.
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"Heidi! Heidi!" "Grandfather! Grandfather!"
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Does an onside kick count as the receiving team "having an opportunity to possess the ball?"
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Yes it does. They* had an opportunity to recover the onsides kick.
*They being the receiving team, not the kicking team, even though, I guess technically it is an opportunity, yes? The
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A.R. 16.2 ONSIDE KICK
On the opening kickoff of overtime, Team A legally recovers the ball at the A41.
Ruling: A's ball, first-and-10 on A41. A kickoff is considered an opportunity to possess for the receiving team. Team B is considered to have had an opportunity to possess the ball.
A.R. 16.3 ONSIDE KICK
On the opening kickoff of overtime, Team A attempts an onside kick. A2 legally touches the ball at the A42 but muffs it and it is recovered by B1 at the A43.
Ruling: B's ball, first-and-10 on A43. Team A is not considered to have had an opportunity to possess the ball.
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Niners DBs really need to learn to call it.
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Eli should stop throwing it over the middle to Cruz in double coverage. I don't think Cruz knows what day it is any more.
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The amazing thing is that if not for the muffed punt, the Niners could have won this game without converting a single third down. Whatever the outcome of the game, they've had every opportunity to put this away and instead have delivered what can only be described as Texans-grade futility. What a strange game to watch.
ouch. what a special day for special teams.
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As a Giants fan, I'm extremely confused and baffled by these special teams errors breaking in our favor.
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+1
Shocked that it wasn't Aaron Ross putting it on the ground. Really good game by the Giants ST.
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Weatherford had a great game too, it was huge for the Giants that he didn't get outplayed badly by Lee.
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I know, right? Every time Ross went to the ground, I cheered, because it meant he didn't lose the ball. Even in a field position game, I'd rather see him take a dive than try to break one.
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That was excellent coaching. There were many times where he was about to get smashed, but instead of fighting for 3 more yards just dove. If Kyle Williams had done the same, the niners probably would have won.
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What.
Mistakes are sending people to the Super Bowl.
Yes, let's carry that ball like that. It's only overtime in the conference championship game with 11 people coming at you. Let's not hold it tight.
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Welp, that saves Billy Cundiff from being the goat of the week...
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Special teams are deciding the games today.
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Somebody should put Kyle Williams and Billy Cundiff in touch with each other
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Drinking game for these 2 weeks: drink every time you hear that this superbowl is a replay of superbowl XLII
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Chug every time you hear a mention of David Tyree.
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Lysol and Tyree are just genuinely nice guys.
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I just filmed it.
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We'd all be dead long before Superbowl Sunday. Probably before the end of Tuesday actually.
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I have too much respect for my liver to do that.
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It's better than having to survive Harbaugh-palooza.
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+2
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Anybody lip-read the Giants kicker in the replay after the kick?
"Mother-F#@king Super Bowl!"
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Yeah, I noticed the second time they showed that clip, it was cut much shorter.
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How did this Giants team lose to the Redskins? TWICE????
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Great game. I feel bad for the Harbaugh family, going 0 for 2.
The way these two teams played, especially on defense, either one looks like they could whip the Pats.
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Don't fall into the opposite trap of what people were doing after the Pats clobbered the Broncos. The Pats are a better team than they looked today. They played the Giants earlier this year and it was a close game. There's no reason to think the Super Bowl should be different.
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I haven't read all of the comments, so I'm sorry if this was already mentioned, but did anyone else notice that Steve Weatherford wears his wedding ring during the game? You could see it clearly as he held the ball on the game-winning field goal.
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That doesn't seem like it should be legal. I have to take off jewelry when I play rec basketball.
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Hah, Ryan Fitzpatrick does the same thing. Maybe thats why he lead teh league in TO's and 3 and outs?
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Incredible game. Much as I feared, the Niners defensive line utterly destroyed the Giants offensive line, taking away the deep passing game. There was one play in particular where both David Diehl and Kevin Boothe got knocked flat on their backs at the snap. I mean, each of them got knocked on their backs individually plenty of times, but that one stood out for me because it happened to both immediately after the snap. OL has to be the top priority in the offseason.
Fortunately, the Giants DL got almost as much pressure on Smith when he dropped back, but at the cost of defending the run. I was pleasantly surprised the Niners didn't run it more in the 4th; the had plenty of time, and they were getting great push the whole game long. Aside from the two long TDs to Davis (now THAT is the Giants secondary I'm accustomed to seeing!), Smith couldn't hit anything tonight.
That said, I have to admit the forward progress call on the Bradshaw fumble was a bad call. It might have been technically in the rules, but I didn't think it should have been called in that instance.
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I didn't see any way the 49ers were winning that with their offense (I picked it up again in the middle of the 4th quarter). They needed a turnover or special teams gaffe. Instead....
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Aside from deep passes to Vernon Davis, they really didn't seem to have much that was working.
But the defense certainly did their job. The offense was enough to win with that defense on the field. Now if only the special teams had followed the script...
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Both D-Lines dominated against the pass, but the Giants didn't have much of an answer in the run game. Gore was getting holes inside and was consistently getting yards in chunks. I'm really surprised they seemed to get away from it late in the game.
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I know I made cracks about it in the pregame discussion, but who would have thought Ted Ginn was the key to this game?
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Exactly my thought.
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My comments on NYG-SF:
Peter King said Kyle Williams would play a role...
This game would not have been nearly as close but for the rain, which helped the 49ers keep up. The Giants defense really just looks like a different unit; take away two bad breakdowns in coverage and SF scores three points. SF didn't convert a third down until the fourth quarter. Both quarterbacks were hurt by the rain, but without rain, SF gets a few third downs and a field goal or two. Without rain, NYG scores forty points.
I get my wish in the SB, too! 2007 rematch.
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Really. 40 points? Did you watch what the 49ers defense did here, what they did to Brees? It is a damn good defense. The Giants couldn't even score 40 on the Packers with turnover help. Your comment is ridiculous.
This was about how the 49ers offense looked against the Saints, whom nobody would confuse with a good defense. A few spurts/big plays along with lots of crap. Only saw a few of their games, but I get the feeling that's about their talent level.
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The Giants only scored 20 points today, and 10 of them were thanks to fumbles by the punt returner.
As for Eli, twice today he threw passes that were easy picks, but were not caught because two defenders crashed into each other going for the ball.
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NY had -seventeen- possessions. Scoring 40 is about equivalent to scoring 28 in a normal game.
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Unless you are scoring on 80 yards plays every third play, the reason you have 17 possessions in a game is because you are punting all of the time. Or you are turning the ball over, and there were only two TOs total in the game.
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The rain didn't hurt the passing game; the constant pressure by both defensive lines hurt the passing game. Davis' two TDs were off blown coverages; Eli's TDs were off of turnovers.
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What horrible endings to two great games.
Looking at the regular season stats, Kyle Williams hadn't had any fumbles in two years, where Aaraon Ross, who was back returning punts for the Giants late in the game, had two in 2011. (Those may have come on interceptions, I did not look at PBP.) Go figure. I suppose Ross listened when the coaches told him to make extra careful returns, unless he did that on his own.
The 49ers offense wasn't showing much, but the Giants weren't really showing that much either. Manning did not make stupid throws, but there were about a half dozen where he got hit and the ball flopped out there. One time the 49ers had their collision, the other times it just flopped into open area. Some luck there.
Wonder if this SB will be a tough sell to the overall market. Two northeast teams, Giants are going to be perceived as having lucky timing more than Cinderella since they did the same thing 4 years ago, no one except Pats fans has much sympathy for the revenge angle.
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The Super Bowl is about the event, not the matchup.
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Mostly, you're right. Half the people that watch never even watched the conference championship games.
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Wonder if this SB will be a tough sell to the overall market.
Well, let's think about this...
From the moment the playoffs started, this was the one matchup that the networks wanted more than any other. "Two northeast teams..." Yeah, but half the country lives in the Northeast. New York is the biggest media market in the country, and Boston's in the top five.
And this is a rematch. And a rematch of the most exciting Super Bowl in the past decade.
Or, to put it more delicately, are you f*cking kidding?????
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Since the Packers and Steelers drew the highest audience ever last year, why not a rematch of that? The Packers aren't in the NE, and I wouldn't consider the Steelers NE either, they're about as NE as Baltimore.
Look at the ratings here:
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2009/01/18/historical-super-bowl-tv-rat...
Don't have the last two years of data on there. I think last year was about 46 and 67 on the rating/share. But look at that list, if you can find some big jump where northeastern teams are involved, you're dreaming.
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But look at that list, if you can find some big jump where northeastern teams are involved, you're dreaming.
If you can find somewhere where I claimed there was a big jump where northeastern teams are involved, you're dreaming.
The original claim was that nobody outside the northeast would be interested.
Why is it impossible for me to rebut that claim without somebody putting words in my mouth?
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And your claim was that the networks are dreaming about having the big market NE teams in the SB. I think the safest comment is that it's unclear what if any impact market size of the two participants has on the rating. The SB attracts so many casual viewers who watch little other football that it might matter more if it's a nice day outside and people want to do something else, or if the roads are too icy to get to the SB parties.
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Agree. The Superbowl is absolutely ratings-proof. The only question is whether or not they set another viewership record in any given year.
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Pittsburgh isn't even arguably in the Northeast. It's not even in the Atlantic Ocean's watershed.
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On the other hand, Baltimore and Washington D.C. arguably are since they are part of the megalopolis.
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"And a rematch of the most exciting Super Bowl in the past decade."
So wait, are you saying they wanted New York and New England or Arizona and Pittsburgh again?
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The New York Giants had 17 possessions, which is normally about one and a half games worth. I wonder if they set any records.
Let's see... most punts in a playoff game by the winning team: Weatherford with 12 breaks the old record of 10 (which was a six-way tie, including 2 games by Kyle Richardson of the 2000 Ravens). And Weatherford breaks the record for most punt yards in a single playoff game, win or lose, with 557.
If we include regular season games as well, since 1960 Weatherford is still in 5th place all-time on both punts (a 17-way tie) and punt yards. But he's not even close to Leo Araguz's record of 16 punts for 709 yards (which came, remarkably enough, in a win for the 1998 Raiders), a record that may hold up for a long time.
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